Pelican Parts Forums - 3.2 to 3.5

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- Porsche 911 Technical Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/)

- - 3.2 to 3.5 - Part II (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/186906-3-2-3-5-part-ii.html)

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
I know some of you are thinking why didn't the rods get installed before the case was sealed? Answer is personal preference. Installing the rods before the case is sealed is obviously easier because you have no problem with space but with the case sealed you have to do it through the cylinder bore in the case which leaves less room to play with. My buddy Steve (formerly of PMNA) prefers to do it this way but says it really doesn't matter.

Hmmm. One of the tests is the "drop rod" test where you let a rod drop freely after it's assembled. If there's no friction, it will rotate freely on the crank. If there's a hangup somewhere, it will become obvious when you perform this simple test. Note, this is a test you can't do if you assemble the rods with the crank inside the case.

-Wayne

Congratulations Ralph!, looks great!

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Hmmm. One of the tests is the "drop rod" test where you let a rod drop freely after it's assembled. If there's no friction, it will rotate freely on the crank. If there's a hangup somewhere, it will become obvious when you perform this simple test. Note, this is a test you can't do if you assemble the rods with the crank inside the case.

-Wayne

Wayne, you are correct and yes that is an easy check. In this instance, the crank was perfectly fine and micropolished by Ollie's and then measured by Steve when it was returned to us. Likewise with the rods. We bolted them together after they were reconditioned by Ollie's and used a bore gauge to check that they measured correctly all the way around. Please don't get the impression that we simply slapped it all together without double checking Ollie's work. After confirming that the measurements were correct, we had no reason to believe there would be a problem.

FWIW, I did mention both of your books in one of my articles submitted to European Car Magazine. Although in my particular case I didn't really have a need to reference them, the rebuild book is a great tool for someone like me who can build an engine but is not a professional. I WOULD have used it as a guide if I was by my lonesome. I figured mentioning them in one of the articles was the least I can do for the opportunity to gather and share information on your forum. :)

Ralph

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
Congratulations Ralph!, looks great!

Thanks Bill, I am having a hard time wiping the smile off my face. I put a couple of hundred of miles on the motor this weekend, and have taken it up to 6,500 a few times. The motor just gets stronger as the revs build. No need to downshift, just nail the throttle in any gear and the torque is there, right now! A HUGE difference from the 3.2L.

I've driven Steve's 3.4L twin-plug in his '85 Targa, and my car feels stronger everywhere (IMO). The car weights are fairly comparable (his would be lighter in any event), so I guess when we dyno both in the coming weeks we'll find out if the apparent horsepower difference is psychological or real.

There is a C5 Vette that I am just dying to test out one of these days. I'm not much for street racing, but this guy drives like a complete jerk because of the high horsepower car he has. I see him 3-4 days a week to/from work and he is always going as fast as he can and changing from one lane to the next and cutting people off. I've watched him race SS Camaro's, WRX's, EVO 8's, M3's, station wagons, mini-vans you name it at stoplights. He's wanted to have a go with me a few times in the past as well, but I didn't think I stood a chance with the mildly modified 3.2L and politely declined.

There will come an opportunity...;) It may be my one and only "street" race as I don't condone it. I just want to try and put him down a link on the food chain. The road is straight for about a mile and a half and has no intersections for cars to enter or law enforcement to hide.

Ralph

Awesome! Congratulations!

Now, the good doctor prescribes:

Track Day. Willow Springs International Raceway. December 7th.

Bring it out. :cool:

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1098156661.jpg

The cylinder CC is 71ml. We can start to plug the numbers into the formula. Not the result I was expecting, it looks like the measured CR is going to be 9.6:1, alot lower then the claimed 10.3:1 of this piston and cylinder set.:(

Steve had the same problem with his 3.4L motor. He ended up with 9.2:1 initially (same 10.3:1 was quoted) but took some more material off the heads until he settled for 9.4:1. He also says that it is common for the CR to be alot lower then advertised. I can't speak for other's Porsche motors, but the water-cooled VW motors are notorius for having inflated CR's. The Mk2 GTI's 1.8L were rated 10:1 from the factory and were more like 9.2:1. Same with Mk 3 GTI 2.0L's, stated CR was 10.5:1 but in reality more like 9.5:1.

Ralph

I know this is an older thread (though I have seen older ones resurrected) but at a 9.4:1 CR would it really be necessary to twin plug an engine if you had access to 93 octane gas?

I think you'd be on the borderline. Also, you want to have asafety factor if a station slips you some lower than 95 octane gas, if carbon buildup changes the CR or creates nuclei for pre-ignition, etc. ....

Thanks for reviving the thread - all the pics are beautiful. I esp. like the bronze colored acorn nuts on the thru-bolts against the Al color of the case.

Your passenger side exhaust gaskets are oriented the wrong way in the picture.SmileWavy

Quote:

Originally Posted by 78P930 (Post 4741059)

Your passenger side exhaust gaskets are oriented the wrong way in the picture.SmileWavy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShakinJoe (Post 4742449)

subd

This thread ended in 2004...

Couldn't help myself.

Where can I get this fiberglass RSR bracket?

Dual Coil Bracket

Where is this dual coil bracket available? It looks really nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera3.5L (Post 1618695)

Well, today was the day! Get the motor back in the car and see if she will actually start!

Here are a couple of "finished" pics of the motor on the engine stand last night with the RSR heater block-off and wire separators mounted:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100742747.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100742794.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100742820.jpg

Here is Steve's beautiful dual coil bracket that he makes, anodized red in this case. Scroll down for pics of it installed in the engine compartment:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100742887.jpg

I transported the motor from Steve's shop back to Vision Motorsports for the install, a distance of about 1/2 mile. Here are some selected pics from today:

Wiring the Andial Signal Splitter with the DME unit:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100743010.jpg

Motor and trans on the jack getting ready to install:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100743087.jpg

Engine compartment detailed and ready to accept the motor:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100743174.jpg

Motor and trans installed!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100743253.jpg

Everything connected & double checked just prior to start-up:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100743380.jpg

I added 10 quarts of oil while Vision tech Mike Olsen reconnected the battery and hooked up the charger. Mike pulled the DME relay out and with one final check it was time to crank her over to get some oil pressure. Cranked for 20-30 seconds while oil pressure built up and now it was time to do it for real!

With the DME relay connected, Mike cranked her over for about 5-10 seconds and the motor coughed, sputtered, smoked and died. Mike turned the key again and almost instantaneously the motor roared to life!

At approximately 4:15 p.m., a rebuilt 3.5L twin-plug motor entered the world. She sounds sweet, gave me goose bumps. Actually a heck of alot quieter then I thought with headers and a dual out muffler, it's not much different then the prior set-up.

Mike immediately set the rpm for 2,000 rpm and left it there for 5-10 minutes while I hooted and hollered around the shop. Then he went to 3,000 rpm for another 5-10 minutes. Then sup to 4,000 rpm for another 5-10 minutes. She was purring like a kitten. I checked up top for fuel line leaks (none) and then took a look underneath for oil leaks with a flashlight and couldn't find anything. Waited till the oil thermostat opened up and then topped up the oil with another 2.5 quarts when the motor finally came back down to idle.

Steve came over and the 4 of us (Steve, Mike, Dwain and myself) had a couple of beers while the motor ran at varying rpm's. While I was at the back of the car playing with the throttle, one of the Vision guys snuck undereath of the car from the front with an oil can and sprayed a bunch of oil at my feet and then yelled to shut it off 'cause she's pissing like a sieve. I probably would have bought it if it wasn't the oldest trick in the book, hell I did it to people while at Andial.

Everything just needs to be tidied up a bit tomorrow (seat reinstalled, clean up the wiring, install the rear swaybar, etc) and will drive the car for the first time tomorrow and probably bring it home Friday afternoon.

Ralph

Reading through the thread, I'm sorry to bump an old one, but had to laugh at how things have changed:

Quote:

So how much does twin-plugging a normally aspirated 3.2L Motronic motor cost? Well, here is a breakdown of what I paid. YRMV:

(1) Used 993 Distributor (ebay) - $210.00
(2) New Distributor Caps - $85.00
(2) New Distributor Rotors - $35.00
(1) New Distributor Drive Belt - $6.00
(1) New Distributor Vent Kit - $7.50
(1) New Bosch Second Coil - $45.00
(1) New ANDIAL Signal Splitter - $525.00
(6) New RSR Lower Plug Hold-Down Clips - $45.00
(12) New Spark Plugs - $15.00
Twin Plug Heads & Lower Valve Covers - $290.00
Miscellaneous (rubber grommets, wire separators, etc) - $50.00

Total: $1,313.50

The only thing that's a big change in today's market is finding a good used 964 or 993 twin distributor. They've gotten a bit more expensive but you can still find one for $400 to $500. I'd recommend installing a new belt in a used distributor too.

You can get good quality Beru brand parts (original supplier to Porsche) for the prices listed above. Check it out in Pelican's parts catalog. Well, actually the new Bosch coils in the silver can are sorta suspect and i'd avoid those. So you're better off getting a couple of used coils.

Andial splitter is no longer made as far as I know. But there's guys who've come up with alternatives to that special part.

You can get your heads and valve covers TP'd for around that same price listed above. Contact cgarr at G2 Performance here on the forums. He does a fantastic job machining heads for very reasonable prices.

I have a solution to the Andial Splitter running already, see this prototype work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EJXtj_ZtM

This solution requires you to source the 964 coils with bracket and the ignition modules mounted on the bracket. I then create a custom harness for this setup with custom circuitry built into the harness. When you get the harness it's a simple 4 wire hookup done in the engine bay and you cut no factory wires at all.

You need to buy a set like this 964 complete set: coils, bracket with modules:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231291655456

I've been asked for this type solution a few times now and I'm building it for a customer but it's easily rebuild-able. On a side note: I've had 2 Andial Splitters in hand and I know how that circuitry works. My new circuitry is more robust than what Andial had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KTL (Post 8956022)

Andial splitter is no longer made as far as I know. But there's guys who've come up with alternatives to that special part.

You can pencil me in for one of those twin plug signal harnesses Sal. Going to be needing one for a 3.2 to 3.4 modification in my '86

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin,

I also have the complete MAF setup for that conversion as well. Like in this setup I did earlier last year:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/871561-1985-3-4-build-using-maf-279-56-hp-237-63-rwhp.html
That setup used the Andial Splitter but now I have that setup with the much simpler twin coil approach. You keep the Motronic and all the factory harnesses are untouched. It's a drop in solution to upgrading to twin plug.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KTL (Post 8965464)

You can pencil me in for one of those twin plug signal harnesses Sal. Going to be needing one for a 3.2 to 3.4 modification in my '86

Thanks,
Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by scarceller (Post 8965379)

This solution requires you to source the 964 coils with bracket and the ignition modules mounted on the bracket. I then create a custom harness for this setup with custom circuitry built into the harness. When you get the harness it's a simple 4 wire hookup done in the engine bay and you cut no factory wires at all.

You need to buy a set like this 964 complete set: coils, bracket with modules:

Porsche 911 964 Bosch Ignition Coil Pack Part 0227100124 | eBay

Actually, this approach (diagram) was posted many years ago on the Pelican Parts forum, i.e. old news, just do a search!