Replica Fuchs

[atomic]

I have an 84 911 with 15x8 and 15x7 fuchs, I want to use 16x7 and 16x8 or 9. The 16 x 8 or 9 are hard to find and are very expensive (supply and demand) Any problems with replica Fuchs?

[Porsche virgin]

The factory wheels are forged and therefore very light and strong. The replicas, I think, are cast. BUT they are the same size as the factory wheels. They need to be thicker to provide the same strength as the forged wheels. For everyday use, the replicas are probably ok. Not for track or autocross use, though.

Do a search. There is a TON of info on this subject.

[Franklin]

About 25 years ago Grady told a story about someone in New Mexico going over a cattle guard at speed with replicas and they came apart. A long time ago but still sobering.

[competentone]

I bought two fake Fuchs as "cheap" wheels to keep a car off blocks while the real Fuchs are removed. They leaked like a sieve; with soapy water you could see the air bubbling through the rim. You wouldn't think aluminum that thick could be porous.

[Grady Clay]

Richard,

THE Richard Hoover? Small world. Welcome to the Forum. What are you driving these days?

Yes, I remember that. They somehow got the 911 up on a big multi-ton stake but with no ramps. We rented a big fork lift to get it off the truck and into the shop. As I recall only one wheel actually came apart but the other three were not usable. That is probably where the demo center came from. Out of thousands of wheels, we never sold the repro Fuchs – thank goodness. Today, I would hope there are suitable ones with industry certification (SEMA and such). Just like they say “There is no substitute.”

I’ll go by DART and some of the shops and get pictures. Everyone uses damaged Fuchs for air/water hose storage. I have never seen a Factory Fuchs come apart in this manner. They can be incredibly mangled, suspension torn apart, chassis crushed and the wheel is still mostly intact. That forged/rolled/machined wheel is one of the hallmarks of Porsche. I should go do some research, I’ll bet there is more than one Christophorus technical article.

Best,
Grady

[RarlyL8]

I've been using fake Fuchs for nearly 20 years - no issues.
Used them for Auto-X, DE, daily drivers, and regular stints at 140mph. I think all this crap about the repos is just hype from paying too much for the real deal.

[ubiquity0]

I would definitely stay w/ the 15's rather than going for 16" replica's. Why would you 'downgrade' to a heavier wheel of unknown quality?

[Bill Verburg]

Believe me the talk about cast wheels weakness is NOT hype

[Franklin]

Hey Grady--Atomic, don't mean to steal your thread--I've got an '87 Carrera Targa, do you still have the '68L? I'm out in Elbert county, if you ever need a destination for a ride come out and see us.

[Franklin]

Hey Grady--Atomic, don't mean to steal your thread--I've got an '87 Carrera Targa, do you still have the '68L? I'm out in Elbert county, if you ever need a destination for a ride come out and see us.

[Grady Clay]

RarlyL8,

The reason for this discussion is to save your life and limb and prevent the destruction of a 911. I don’t doubt there are replica Fuchs that have been in service for 20 years. I’m just not inclined to put them on my car or recommend them to someone relying on my advice.

I think there were some made that approached the strength of cookie cutters but those were the exception. There are some fake Fuchs that are only suitable for garage use IMHO.

I had a Factory engineer explain to me the manufacturing process. This won’t be exact after 30+ years.
The aluminum metal alloy is aircraft grade designed for forging. That means it is malleable and will withstand the forging process but is not prone to fracture like many casting metals. Yes, it will bend.
The original casting is machined for a prefect fit prior to the first forge process.
The first forge delineates the basic shape. This is where the numbers are impressed in the back side of the spokes.
The forging is then machined to position the center and the blank for the rim. Again, it is machined to high tolerance.
In a series of processes, the rim is rolled from the forging. Again, more machining to keep everything in tolerance. Eventually the full rim is formed.
Somewhere in there the lug holes, etc. are positioned.
There is a final machining, indexing on the center and lug nuts.
Polishing, painting, and drill for the valve stem are the next procedures.
Final inspection is the last process.

I bought wheels from Porsche that didn’t pass the final inspection for appearance. They were great race wheels.

I think that over the long term (next 100++ years) the 911 Fuchs will be one of the world’s best example of the art of materials engineering and engineering art. Buy a new Fuchs and put it away for your great-grand child.

Best,
Grady

[Jack Olsen]

Since Grady is talking about the manufacturing process, I'll re-print a post I did about Fuchs a while back:

Paraphrased from Porsche 911: Forever Young, by Tobias Aichele:

Otto Fuchs Metallwerke had made forged wheels for armored military vehicles for Porsche during the war. So it made sense for Porsche to contact the same company when they came up with the idea of creating light alloy wheels for their 911 production car in the mid-60's. Fuchs representative Herr Kretsch offered Porsche something beyond their expectations, though: the possibility of mass-producing a high quality forged alloy wheel.

Nothing on this scale had ever been attempted in Germany.

Heinrich Klie of the Porsche model department (the early version of the styling studio) was given the task of styling the wheel. He became the 'father' of the Fuchs wheel. He is also responsible for a number of 911 design details, including the complete dashboard.

Klie and his team were given no precise instructions for the wheel, so he simply went to work with Plasticine modeling clay and came up with a design. Where styling assignments would typically involve weeks of trial and error, changes, and new revisions, this wasn't the case with the Fuchs wheel. The first model was shown to Ferry Porsche, who approved it "with a wave of a hand," according to Klie.



It then went to the suspension design department, where engineer Rudolf Hoffmann was responsible for the wheel's physical properties. Minor modifications were made.

From there, Fuchs chief engineer Karl-Heinz Ochel had to oversee a whole new process for manufacturing the wheel. 58 steps were required to make a single Fuchs wheel.

From Porsche 911: Forever Young, by Tobias Aichele
"To be precise, the Fuchs wheel was formed by the following steps. A pressed piece of stock was forged to make a forging blank. Next, drop forging the blank produced the ventilation holes and deburred the flange. A further drop forging step resulted in a split flange, before the workpiece was widened by rolling. And here is the secret advantage of this complex manufacturing process: the Fuchs wheel stayed in production for so many years because it could be rolled to any width desired. The forming process resulted in a wheel with a completely finished inner side. The outer, visible side of the wheel was turned on special lathes, which resulted in the smallest possible wheel imbalance. A carefully developed surface finish -- polishing, anodizing, and painting -- permitted different design variations over the years and assured high corrosion resistance."

After being tested directly on numerous cars, some very minor changes were made, and the wheels were offered on the 1967 models. There was some internal controversy in the company over the design itself, but the marketing people prevailed in support of the wheel, and history proved them correct. The wheel became a runaway success and remained a design fixture on the 911 for 20 years.

Edit: I substituted in better scans of the pictures.

[Grady Clay]

Jack,

WOW!

I wonder who in that picture I talked to? I’ll see if I can figure it out. Can you identify the people?

At least my lame old memory didn’t fail me.

An amazing feature of that picture is that it probably is ’65-67 and there is a girl in the photo with a young Ferry Porsche. Uncommon for West Germany in that era. Good for them.

Best,
Grady

[CarreraS2]

16 x 7 x 8 isn't hard to find and isn't that expensive.

9s are a bit more, but not that much more.

How much would a set of replicas cost?

You can find good 7/8s for $1200, good 7/9 for 1500, and you'll have the real thing, which is better in all regards.

In the end, the real ones will be cheaper. The replicas will devalue significantly, the real things will only go UP in value over the years.

Life's way too short to be rolling on fake Fuchs.

[RarlyL8]

There is no doubt the Fuchs are great wheels when compared to a "lesser" cast wheel of an type. This does not mean cast wheels are garbage. Millions of cars run on them every day without issue. You don't need race quality wheels on a street car any more than you need Z rated tires.

[mede8er]

7's and 9's.....worth the $$$.........

[Jack Olsen]

Originally posted by Grady Clay
JWOW! I wonder who in that picture I talked to? I’ll see if I can figure it out. Can you identify the people?

At least my lame old memory didn’t fail me.

The book doesn't identify anyone. It's Heinrich Klie with his hand on the wheel, and I think the two guys above the woman are Piech brothers.

I'm substituting in better scans of both pictures, since I didn't own a scanner when I originally posted it.

[Grady Clay]

Tom,

You are right on.

One of the design features of a great car (Porsche) is there is progressive energy absorbing deformation in an accident. You want the tire & wheel first to absorb an impact. Then the various suspension components. Finally the chassis removed from the occupants.


Brian, I agree. There are plenty of OE Fuchs available. With patients and perseverance, bargains can be had. You hit on the two big issues; safety and appreciation.

Life IS way too short.

Best,
Grady

[randywebb]

Rarly late -- Go back and re-read Tom's post. That is exactly what can happen to a street car. And if it happens at high speed or on a mtn side, you will be Rarly alive.

It's your life. Do what you want.

[azasadny]

I just replaced the replica Fuchs wheels that were on my car when I bought it. I found several cracks radiating out to the petals from the center spindle on 2 of the 4 and it scared me! I picked up a beautiful set of real Fuchs last summer (fellow Pelican) and sent them to Al Reed a few weeks ago. They'll be here any day now and I'm pretty excited to see how they look. The replicas I had were much heavier than the real Fuchs and I'll feel much better with wheels on my car then don't have cracks in them!