Aah lawyers…..

Many (most?) racers in the ’69-’76 era threw away the roll pins and just used the four M10 bolts. It made for faster transaxle R&R. Clearly the pins were not essential if the bolts were tight.

“Let me repeat something that has been said many times. The CV bolts do not transmit the axle driving torque in shear or bending, they only provide the clamping force. It is the shear friction that transmit the driving torque and it is generated by the high pressure provided by the CV bolt clamping force. This is the reason why it is so important to maintain the highest clamped pressure for the steel-to-steel surfaces. That is why the proper torque is ESSENTIAL.”

Does this meet with your editorial approval? Hehe. Me don’t no english so goot.

Thanks Randy.

Best,
Grady

Grady, send some sample fasteners to me and I can "Rockwell" test them for ya at work. Fairly easy to do. Let me know.
Be glad to help!

It does.

Actually - you see the scientist above - not the lawyer.

I like my pins - a lot easier to reinstall the things...

Grady:
Any info from Schnorr regarding the original vs. the McMaster versions?
j.p.

Grady, Randy, gang...

I've been practically exiled from the BBS here for a while...just a few posts here and the, but I thought I should come here and post an update on my own particular situation.

Since I didn't have a lot of time to spend disassembling my CV joints, I decided to just spring for a new pair of rear axles. Plus, I figured if I just replaced/rebuilt the inner CV's, it would only be a matter of time before the outer ones wore out, ant that would require replacing the axles anyway....so, new axles were ordered. Old ones removed and new ones installed in just a few hours.

While doing the replacement, I took care to do a little "prep" work. Using some degreaser and a ton of Q-tips, I cleaned out the threads in the drive flanges of all grease and grime. Cleaned them until a clean Q-tip wiped around the inside of the threads came back out white....reminded me of when I was cleaning my rifle while in the Marine Corps. ;)

Once cleaned, I installed the new axles and torqued to spec. New bolts, schnorrs and half-moon clips all around. That was almost 500 miles ago.

Climbed underneath tonight to have a look and check for tightness of the bolts. It was great to find that EVERY bolt was just as tight as they were when I installed them. Not one loose bolt on either axle.

Sadly, though, while the klunking noises have reduced quite a bit, they still exist. But, I think I may have found the source.

Whenever I need to raise the rear-end, I use the method suggested by John Walker. Positioning the floor jack underneath the exhaust cross-over flange, I raise the rear-end high enough to set the jackstands in place. It was while I had the weight of the car/engine on the jack that I took a look at the engine mounts (as was suggested here a few months ago). Here is a pic of what I found.

Driver's Side:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1128302441.jpg

Passenger's Side:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1128302482.jpg

Time for some new mounts???

Randy

WEVO SS all the way!!!
j.p.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1128304465.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1128304501.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1128304522.jpg

jpahemi,

To keep this thread on topic, I started another thread about engine mounts here.

Randy

If you suspect that the CV joints are bad, is there a test, procedure, whatever, that you can do under the car, when everything is still together, that would help you along with your diagnosis?

Grady?

Thanks for an incredible amount of information in this thread.

CVs are occasionally mysterious about their failures (in Randy’s case it was easy). The characteristic noise is a “snap” or “click” usually under load and cornering.

Some things you can do are:

Feel the CV boot. If the cage has broken some of the pieces and balls may get pushed out into the boot.

Confirm there is no significant rotational play in the CVs. (Very subjective.)

Confirm the axle shaft can move axially about 1 cm or so. Try this in several different rotational positions. It should be relatively free to move.

With the car properly supported and the suspension “hanging”, rotate the rear wheels by hand. Listen for a “pop” or “snap” sound. See if you can feel it in the axle shaft.

In some cases it might be worthwhile to run the car while supported in the air. Be very careful, two flimsy jack stands may tip. You might try this both with the suspension hanging and with the suspension supported. Be careful that a tire can’t rub a jack stand. You can load the CVs by lightly applying the brake. If you run the car in the air, take EVERY precaution.


If in doubt, service the CVs for inspection. The cost of grease, four boot kits and new hardware is insignificant compared to the damage that can be done. A little extra maintenance is a good thing for peace of mind.

Best,
Grady

Thnaks, Grady. I'll give your suggestions a try.

is there a particular type of grease that's best for cv joints? if one is hard to find, are other types suitable as substitutions?

thanks

use an EP type grease -- extreme pressure

always use a quality name brand (tho the brand might not have been known to you last week...)

synthetics are good, eh?

most will say that they are FOR CV joints right on the pkg

Of course, Pelican sells good grease...

Isn't the grease a speciel moly/graphite blend that usually comes in blue tubes, used specifically for CV's?
j.p.

yes - think I've seen some of that -- forget the brand

I've seen some with lead in it too...

hardware questions for Grady
 

Grady,

Hope all is well with you.

Finally had a chance to get the car up in the air to check out my CV joints per your instructions. All was quiet, with no popping, clicking, or bumps. Proper axial movement. Two boots shot, so I'll replace them all and service the CV joints. Some questions:

What is the proper pitch for the M10 50mm bolts?

Does it make any difference what the finish is on the bolt, provided that they're 12.9?

Is the only place to get Schnoor washers from Schnoor? If so, will they sell in small quantities (like a bag of 100, or whatever)?

OK to use the moon plates a second time?

Is it ok to use the self-locking axle nut again, or should they replaced?

Any other thoughts?

Thanks.

small hijack....

first, i reused the moonplates w/ no problems... just cleaned them up before reassembly

second, i had no idea what length of cv bolts i had on the car, so when ordering from mcmaster i did the shotgun scatter approach and bought 45mm, 50mm, and 55mm. I believe I only used 50mm so if you are interested in a box (way more than you need) of the others, let me know.

don't know about the axle nut, mine is the castle type so I only put in new cotter pins

mcmaster sells washers very similar to shnoor called belleville that work in the same way as shnoor. many here have used them successfully

bump

Grady, are you there?

very good info in this thread. =o) I just purchased 4 of the CV boot kits since mine are looking aged...but reading this thread has been quite an eye opener. I am going to drop the engine/tranny soon to replace the clutch and associated clutch parts so I thought I would replace the CV boots as well. The kicker is I need to do this job in one day...I have done the clutch job in one day before, but adding the CV boot replacement may push me over the time limit.

OK...my question is can someone post a drawing of the press method to remove the shafts from the CV joint? I see the points to support on the CV joints but I dont see where the press/pressure is applied.

EDIT: Another question.

I just went out and looked at my CV joints (Outer) and they have bolts securing them like the inner ones...so does this mean I can pull them without removing the wheels as described in the 101 Projects? And...would it be possible to remove both boots while only removing one CV (i.e. sliding the boot over the entire axle lenght and off)?

Tut,

Sorry, your questions escaped me.

”What is the proper pitch for the M10 50mm bolts?”
M10 is 1.50 (M8 is 1.25)

”Does it make any difference what the finish is on the
bolt, provided that they're 12.9?”
Yes, there is some discussion about this. Porsche plated
the replacement bolts for a while in the ‘80s and went back
to plain black finish. Some mechanics won’t use plated bolts.

”Is the only place to get Schnorr washers from Schnorr? If
so, will they sell in small quantities (like a bag of 100, or
whatever)?”
I e-mailed them a month ago, I’ll try again.

”OK to use the moon plates a second time?”
Yes, inspect for any raised places.
You can also turn them over.

”Is it ok to use the self-locking axle nut again, or
should they replaced?”
Yes, the self locking nut is a “use once” part. The earlier
castile nut can be reused if OK and with a new cotter pin.


Smitty,

Plan the work, lay out all your tools, get a knowledgeable
helper, start early, have all the parts ready, have the
torque specs written out, etc.

Here is the diagram Randy (Pelican rcecale)needed.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132086312.jpg



The easiest way is to pull the entire half shaft out, including
the stub axle. That way you can get it in a proper press with
the inner race supported, clean and re-grease everything and
torque the CV back onto the stub axle. There will be a better
result and it will go faster.

Yes, you can do it leaving the stub axle in place. However it is
next to impossible to get the outboard CV reattached to the
stub axle. Most who try it end up taking the stub axle out
after a frustrating hour.http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/anger.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/smash.gif

Best,
Grady

thank you Grady, so since my CV's have the 4 bolts on both the wheel/shock trailing arm can all stay in place? The bolts on the outer CV's will likely give me a hell of a time as I don't think they have been off in quite some time.

Thanks, Grady.

I purchased M10 Schnoor washers from Schnoor. The real deal. Came in a box of 1,000. Obviously, I don't need all of them. I'll distribute them to anyone who wants them at my cost of 5.4 cents/, plus shipping. Hope the moderators don't mind this little endeavor, but I intend it as a "public service", given that there was quite a bit of discussion about Schnoor vs. belleville vs ?.

Smitty,

I think all 911s ’69 and later have to have the lower shock bolt off. You can loosen the outer CV bolts while still on the 911. The final thing you should do is re-torque everything (inboard and outboard) before you set the car on the ground.

Remember to re-torque after some driving.

Glue the gasket to the recessed surfaces, that will make installation easier.


Tut, I’ll take a few sets. Send me and Wayne one extra washer so we can put our eagle eye on them.

Randy (rcecale), do you still have your damaged axles? Could I sacrifice them for the good of Pelican? I’ll pay shipping.

Best,
Grady

Grady Clay
2321 S. Leyden St.
Denver, CO 80222-6235

Belleville washers are available from mcmaster-carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/param/asp/PSearch2.asp?reqTyp=parametric&act=psearch&FAM=was hers&FT_138=63201&FT_294=64693&desc=Belleville+Spr ing+Washers&sesnextrep=532650883005965&ScreenWidth =1280&McMMainWidth=1073

is this sufficient? I have not read the entire thread.

Grady, how many sets of 24 would you like? Is the Wayne you are referring to our host, or another Wayne?

84 Carrera CV Joint Bolts
 

Hi All

Been reading this and other threads and I have a few specific questions regarding my 84.

1. When I pulled the CV joints, I had no washer and no moon plates. It appears to me that the 84s didn't have moon plates they use 6 8mm x 50 mm hex bolts.

2. Do they sell moon plates for mine?

3. The face of the flange measures 100 mm in diameter, if that matters.

4. In Wayne's book he says that if large ball bearings fall out (they did) its a sure sign you need new CV joints. Is this true? I cleaned them up somewhat and the balls, the cages and the outer race, all visually appear excellent.

5. Any definitive source on the Schnoor washers for 8mm? I'll measure and put in 8mm x 55 mm bolts if I have to.

Thanks much.

I called Pelican and they said my car didn't come with the moon plates, and that 50 mm is standard bolt. If I were to use some other moon plate, then I'll need to buy longer bolts. Randy, any thoughts on No. 4 where Wayne says if the ball bearing fall out you need new CV joints, mine all looked pretty good inside and I'm pretty sure the balls have to come out otherwise you couldn't assemble the things.

while i don't have a fix-your-car book published, i don't think that's necessarily the case. while assembling an axle, when you install the 2nd cv you have to have a way to secure the cv that's already been rebuilt and installed on the other end of the axle b/c they have a *tendency* to fall apart. so i think the fact that they fall apart doesn't always indicate a worn cv.

Hugh,

To answer your questions:

1) Your 911 is in the era where the bean counters eliminated anything they felt excess … like safety washers. The plate washers (moon plates) go with the Schnorr washers.

2) Yes, there are plate washers (moon plates) for the 100 mm Type 923 CV joints. P/N farther up in this thread.

3) Yes, that CV was originally installed with the 912E 4-cylinder. The bean counters deemed it sufficient for the SC and Carrera. Of course after failing and coming loose the CVs were brought back to previous 108 mm spec in ‘87 that had been continuously used with the Turbo, Turbo Look, and 928. There is a lot of this info above in this thread.

4) See above thread. The critical issue when installing Schnorr washers and plate washers is the CV bolt needs to be longer. It should protrude through the flange 1-2 threads (1 ½ is ideal MIL spec).

If you want to update, there are parts to fit the later 928 axle assemblies with the 108 mm CVs. All that is also covered in the above thread. It’s worth reading.

Best,
Grady

Ok, yet another question. One of my boots on my 84 is coming loose, it looks OK inside when I cleaned it up. I don't have those metal bands on my boots, they seem to be inserted into a lip in the body of the CV joint. Can I buy new boots and install them, or am I hosed if the boot comes out?

Ok, on further research, it appears that I can buy replacement boots with flanges for my 84 CV joints from PP. I'll add that to the list. It appears, that my car doesn't need/use the banding pliers.

Grady, Randy Webb, thanks for all your help. I'm not trying to pick your brain in lieu of doing on line research, (acutally I've learned alot about the subject since yesterday). I guess that I'm just asking some dumb/obvious questions on a subject that I have zero familiarity with. I appreciate your help very much.

Well it turns out Pelican only carries the moon plates for the 108 mm CV joints with the 10mm bolt holes. Any other sources?

This has been a most excellent topic. After adjusting the valves on my 87 (G50) Cab I found that my outer passenger boot was torn up. I ordered 4 boots from PP and after reading Bently and this thread see that I now need a heavy duty impact wrench, a very large torque wrench to get the axel nut off. I see in Bentley that the nut should be torqued to 339 ft/lbs WOW.

1. Can the nut be removed with the wheel off and on jack stands or do I need to put the wheels back on and put the car back down to get the nut off? Does this nut need to be replaced or can I reuse it?

2. When I removed the CV there were no washers on the bolts only the moon brackets. This seems correct in the diagrams I have seen. Are they only there prior to 87?

Related to this, I had been experiencing the feeling of clutch slippage when going around a corner after coming to a stop. I have a limited slip differential. The wrench who I used to take my car to said that it may be time to change the transmission oil as there are cluch type mechanics related to the LSD. I had my cluch repalced at 87k and now have 128k.

3. Is the slip I was feeling related to the outer CV joint that has the damaged boot or is this a separate issue?

4. Anyone give an opinion on Harbor Tools torque wrenchs and Impact wrench vs Craftsman or Ingersol Rand?

5. Will a 1/2 impact wrench that can produce say 450 lbs of torque be able to loosen the axel nut?

Thanks
Eric

2. Use the moon plates - search on Grady's name if it isn't on this thread.

4. The top name brand tools will work well for a long time, and can then be repaired. They are less likely to break while spinning and throw peices of the motor across your gut...

5. Yes, but I would use a cheap breaker bar not a spendy torque wrench - it is a precision instrument (OK, semi-precision) - a measureing device. Treat it that way.

1. You can remove the nut with the wheel in the air if you prevent it from turning. One way to do this is pictured below (This method worked for me. :D )

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1117331605.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1117331631.jpg

You'll want to protect the threads by covering them up with galvanized pipe. I used 2" x 1/2" galvanized nipples I picked up at Home Depot.

You can re-use the nuts.

5. To expand on randywebb's answer to # 5, when I used a 1/2' breaker bar to bust mine loose, I made a cheater bar from a 5 ft. long piece of 1-1/2" galvanized pipe. Popped the nuts loose in no time at all.

Randy

That is a great idea! Does the driver side have left handed threads or were you putting the nut back on in that pic?

I will try the cheater bar as opposed to the impact wrench for now.

Both sides are threaded normally...righty-tighty, lefty-loosey. I must have been putting it all back together.

Randy

Oh...for the record....the idea for the crowbar in the wheel studs was not my original idea. It was something I picked up here on this BBS. These guys are really amazing!!!

Randy

Ok, I have removed the passenger axel and have removed the inner cv joint. I cannot for life of me get the brass cover off the outer cv joint. It is like it is welded on. Any tips on getting it off? I will keep on using liquid wrench and tapping with a mallet and nylon rod but it has not moved a mm.
eric

Well I fixed the torn CV boot last Thursday night. Here is a pictorial of how it went...

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2836.jpg

Removal of M22 nut with an oxy-acetalene torch, impact wrench and a 32mm impact socket. Pic shows Torn boot and nut removed. Painful boys.

The 6 bolts that hold the CV joint to the diff where removed by putting the trans in neutral and using the impact wrench with a 10 mm 12 point triple square bit. Bam Bam Bam, and they all fly off without having to lock down the axle!


This pic shows the half shaft removed and mounted on vise with soft jaws.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2837.jpg


This next part was messy. A c-clip was removed and the center CV joint came apart and off. I cut the boot off and cleaned most of the grease out. Ewww. Yuckky.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2838.jpg

Next the new boots where put on. New band clamps where put sliped over the boots and tightened with this fancy too. It crimps and smashes the head down.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2842.jpg

Look how pretty the crimp looks!

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2845.jpg

One thing I learned the hard way was not to put the head of the crimp next to a bolt hole! I had to get under the car and twist the clamp, if it was not for this episode of stupidity it would have been a 100% above ground experience. A few seconds of laying under the car is not bad, I still consider it a success.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2846.jpg

Yay, fresh boots and new clamps.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2847.jpg

The car looks like its taking a leak on a fire hydrant.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2848.jpg

Look how far off the ground the car was. The torque wrench I borrowed from my neighbor was gigantic.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2849.jpg

I put those fancy schorr serrated locking washers under each bolt head and torqued them to 61 ft-lbs. Ouch. I heard them scream for mercy as I twisted their necks.

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2853.jpg

http://www.alvarogil.com/pictures/20...s/IMGP2854.jpg

Tool List:

Impact Wrench
Breaker Bar
Air Ratchet
32mm Hex
10mm Triple Square (12 point) bit. 8mm for Pre 85.5 carerra.
Fancy Schorr washers. 10mm. From McMaster.com
Torque Wrench. (Look at the size of this thing!)
C-Clip Tool
Cutting wheel (in case you need to cut off stuck CV covers.)
Screw Driver for original c-clip
Scissors. Makes things, slightly less messy.


Here are a few tips:

1 - Cut off wheel might be required to take off caps. They are glued on.
2 - don't put crimp in front of bolt hole
2.5 - buy the crimp tool. It crimps and smashes at the same time.
3 - use impact wrench to take off bolts while in neutral. Very fast.
4 - Man that 32mm bolt is on tight. I didnt have a 3/4" breaker bar, but that would have probably worked better. This might be the make it or break it portion of the project. Make sure you have the means of taking this thing off.



Thanks for the thread its great!