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Constant Velocity (CV) Joint Replacement
Awww, crap!
Looks like I may have tranny issues again. #@#$$$#@#@#$$!!!!! I've got almost 5,000 miles since I took it apart last year. It's been running fine...shifting without issue and now....well...not so much! Went to meet the wife this evening for dinner. She had been shopping at the mall, so I hopped in the P-car and headed out to meet her. 5 miles or so to the freeway, no problems. 10 miles down the I-285 to Perimeter Mall. Cruising along with traffic, still no issues. Exit the freeway, stop at a red light at the end of the exit ramp. Go through 2 more lights, again, no problems. Stop at another light, waiting to make a right turn into the mall parking lot. Sitting there for a while, so I shift out of gear, into neutral...foot off the clutch. No sense wearing out. Light turns green, step on clutch, shift into first. Ease foot off of clutch, feel first begin to engage, then...CLUNK...CLUNK...car decides it doesn't want to move on it's own power. Enging is running fine, never had any problems with that. Try shifting through the gears, I can feel them all...but...I soon discover that I don't need to engage the clutch to shift gears. Engine still running, I can shift between all gears, without stepping on the clutch. The will still not move. Shut the car off and a guy with a nice looking 350Z happens past and asks if I need a push. We push it into the mall parking lot and out of traffic. Great to see helpful people like that still exist in the world. :D Anyway, long story short, car feels as though it is shifting into all gears, even reverse, but just will not move on it's own power. When I step on the clutch, it still feels the same as normal. I feel the spring resistance, feels stiff, like normal. Could this be the clutch has just disintegrated? Or something worse? Am I going to be opening the case up again??? Sure hope not. Hopefully it's just a clutch/pressure plate kinda thing. Anyone? :( Randy Oh, haven't had the chance to look into anything yet. Had dinner with my wife, as planned, and came home. Hopefully I'll get a chance to look closer at her tomorrow. |
Randy,
Hopefully a CV came loose. Probably easy to fix if nothing else got damaged. Best, Grady |
Grady, that would be sweet, if it turns out to be only a CV. I've read about that here...seems like a few times...lately.
I'll lift her up tomorrow and have a look. If that's what it is, I'm thinking there shouldn't be too much damage. I was able to start movement from one traffic light, and then travel maybe 1/8th of a mile to the light where it refused to move. I was even able to get it moving when I heard the clunking. Thinking about it, the sound of the clunking sounds like it could have been the CV. Keep your fingers crossed. MINE ARE!!! Thanks for the QUICK reply!!!! It's awesome to have the angels in my corner! :D Randy |
Re: Uh Oh...
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i had a tranny in 2 gears at once. It was like the car was towing 50tons for about 1/4mi. then in garage and out the tranny comes for some r&r.. party hearty.
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sure sounds like cv's from the clunks..if it were a clutch cable you would have known that..couldn't have anything to do with the tranny either (hellacious rebuild thread ;) )..i'm with grady on this one (always a safe place to be) :)
ryan |
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Did a search last night, and again this morning and found the following threads.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/221409-axel-fell-off.html http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/219086-consequences-cv-bolts-backing-out-ouch.html Between these and what you and Grady have posted, I'm confident this is exactly what happened. I'll be taking a look a little later on this morning. Hopefully there is no damage. I'll post back what I find. Unfortunately, I fogot my camera this morning, so I won't be able to take/post any pics. Randy btw....I was able to find a P/N for the bolts last night, but didn't write it down, figuring I'd get it this morning again from a search. Now I can't seem to find it. Anyone have this info? It's an 86. Thanks, again, everyone! |
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900 067 123 01 M10x50 "since the new CV have a sheet metal housing, washers, Porsche pn 911 332 191 00 must be used" |
GREAT!!!! Thanks for another quick reply!
My setup looks similar to this one... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116109643.jpg Porsche says “NOTE: Since the new CV joints have a sheet metal housing, washers [moon plates] 911.332.191.00 must be used when installing.” It says nothing about bolt length or Schnorr lock washers. I guess I'm stating the obvious here, but the bolt and washer are items 20 and 21, respectively, and item 22 is the "moon plate," correct? Only reason I'm asking is because of some of the info I saw last night, where people were confirming which year CV joints had which types of parts, i.e., schnorr washers, etc... Randy |
I believe new schnorr washers are always a good idea no matter what factory did.
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Randy,
The steps: 1) Diagnose problem and decide if anything else got damaged. Pay particular attention to the surface and threads on the transmission axle flange. If any concern, pull the flange out so it is easy to work on. You can lap the surface flat with a piece of plate glass and some 600 grit wet-dry paper. Check the internal threads both visually and by feel with a good bolt. Make sure there is a slight champher from the first thread to the flat surface. Determine the diameter of the bolts and CV; 8 mm or 10 mm for the bolts and 100 mm or 108 mm for the CV. Check the CV boots for damage. Inspect the CV surface that mates to the flange. 2) Reinstall the CV with the (good) used bolts and correctly torque; 33 ft-lbs for 8 mm bolts (M8) on 100 mm CVs or 60 ft-lbs for 10 mm bolts (M10) on 108 mm CVs. 3) Collect all the needed new parts; new 12.9 bolts, new Schnorr lock washers, and new or good used moon plates if you don’t have them. Be prepared to replace the CV boot(s) if needed. Use new CV gaskets if yours requires gaskets and have several spares available. 4) Have the calibration of your torque wrench checked. Make sure you have perfect (new) condition Allen socket wrench for the internal hex CV bolts; 6 mm wrench size for M8 bolts and 8 mm wrench size for M10 bolts. 5) Pre assembly; have everything clean and inspected known good or new condition. Glue the new CV gasket to the flange so it will stay in place. You don’t need to glue it to the CV joint. Install the CVs using the old bolts, moon plates and Schnorr washers and torque to spec (33 ft-lbs for M8 bolts 60 ft-lbs for M10 bolts.) Check for the amount of thread extending through the flange, it should be 1-2 threads (1 ½ ideal) when the flange axial play is compressed towards the transmission. Check for bolt clearance to the transmission casting. 6) Final assembly; remove a pair of bolts and a single moon plate. Clean the threads in the bore of the CV and flange using aerosol “Brake Clean” and compressed air. A small “test tube” brush will help. Compare the length of the new bolt to the just removed bolt. Verify it is a 12.9 bolt. Install dry with NEW Schnorr washer and the moon plate. Torque to spec; (33 ft-lbs for M8 bolts 60 ft-lbs for M10 bolts.) Repeat for other bolts – two at a time. 7) When finished, check the torque in sequence so you can’t miss any. 8) Repeat torque check after some driving and again at least annually. Keep a spare set of new bolts, Schnorr washers, moon plates, etc. for the occasion when you want to remove the CVs. Some thoughts: There has been much confusion about the torque spec for the two different size CV bolts. Some are from errors in print. There has also been confusion about the size (diameter) of the bolt and the wrench size. I am measuring a M10 12.9 bolt on the unthreaded diameter under the head at 9.86 mm. This M10 bolt uses an 8 mm internal hex wrench size. Always use new Schnorr washers. Never use used ones and absolutely no substitute washers. Use only 12.9 bolts with 6-point internal hex wrench socket. Never use a substitute. Inspect for any damage, particularly the internal hex. Always use the Factory moon plates and not individual flat washers. There are two versions of the moon plates for each bolt size. There are early M8 used on ’66-’68 6-bolt 100 mm CVs. There are late M8 used on ’78-’86 6-bolt 100 mm CVs. There are early 4-bolt M10 used on ’69-’75 108 mm CVs. There are late 6-bolt M10 used on ’86 and later 108 mm CVs. Obviously M8 has a nominal 8 mm hole and M10 has a nominal 10 mm hole. The difference between early and late is the inside clearance cut-out for the tin cover. I’ll get some examples and post an image. The late moon plate versions may be used on the early CVs but not vice versa. There are different seals; for ’66-’68 there were none, they just leaked. From ’69 to somewhere they were outside the CV bolt circle diameter. Starting with ’76? They were inside the CV bolt circle diameter. From ’84 on the CV had an end-cap and no seal. The thickness of the CV (in the axial dimension) was reduced in ’72 so the bolt length changed. Always check for the correct bolt penetration. As everyone can see, there is much opportunity for mischief. The wrong torque can be used, the wrong parts installed, a PO “quick fix” left in place, and much more. This Forum has had way too many accounts of CV attachment problems. This is a serious life-and-death situation if a CV comes loose at speed or at just the wrong time. Best, Grady I’ll go edit this to add other’s good ideas and correct any errors. |
What am I missing here?????
If gears in the tranny can be engaged WITHOUT depressing the clutch (as mentioned) how does this translate to CV's?? |
The clutch connects and disconnects the transmission from the wheels on the input side of the transmission. With a disconnected CV, the output side of the transmission (axle) is disconnected from the wheel. In the absence of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD), the differential just spins in its differential mode (one side free to spin and the other stopped with the tire not rolling) and you can shift into any gear as if you had the clutch depressed.
Good question. Not obvious to most. Best, Grady |
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If a clutch disintegrates, usually debris gets in between the flywheel and the PP making gear selection difficult. I suppose that in some circumstances, the thing could evacuate the premises and leave one with nothing. Not likely. |
a few more tips to fill in -- observe the correct orientation of the "dish" concavity on the Schnoor washers
new bolts are cheap - old ones can be reused (they are not stretch bolts) if you carefully check the threads & internal Allen wrenching feature. I replaced my 35 year old ones just because... I use a Q-tip to get extra grease out of the hole for the bolt - you can put brake cleaner on it too. Someday I will be adept enough to not get the grease in there in the first place. Don't forget to check the torque after a few hundred miles; if a tad loose then repeat later too. It cost about $25 to get your torque wrench calibration checked - use Google if not in a big city. Some people drill the bolt heads for wire - I'd rather buy ones with the holes already in them from a specialty bolt manf. -- but I haven't -- to me it's overkill. Re-emphasis: note that you have to select the right bolt (ok,ok, "cap screw") dia. and the right length - be sure not to miss that part of Grady's instructions. |
Just want to thank all for a very informative thread. :D
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A BIG THANK YOU, indeed!!!!!!!
Well, just as Grady called it. The Flange had disconnected from the inboard side. All 6 bolts still in place in the flange. $ of them tightened down without issue, but 2 adjoining bolts (cap screws) didn't want to play. they started in, but got "tight" way before they were supposed to. Perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but I needed to get my car from the mall parking lot, so I made sure the 4 good ones were torqued and put a tad more twist on the 2 non-players and drove her home cautiously. She'll be a lot easier to work on in her own room. :) I'm back at work now, but I'll see about tearing back into her tonight after picking up some new cap screws. I DID notice a lot of grease all over the place. A lot more than I seem to remember when I disconnected them from the tranny last year. Oh, while I was under there, in the mall parking lot, took a turn on the cap screws on the other side of the tranny. Those all felt snug enough. Thanks again for all the advice, Grady and the rest of you guys. As always, Pelicans are up for the task! You guys are the best!!!! Randy |
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Thanks folks.... |
Not a day goes by where I don't learn something from this BBS.
;) Randy |
I learn stuff here everyday, just not how to make my car run :(
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rcecale-
I might have seen your car a month or so ago in the Home Depot parking lot on Peachtree Dunwoody Road (next to Costco). You ever over there? It would be nice if all the ATL pelicans put pictures of their cars up- I see lots of older 911s running around and I always wonder if I they are pelicans... |
Well, Randy (with the axle, not Webb), you have your work cut out for you. You will have to be very careful to "chase" the threads in your hub before installing NEW bolts.
Be sure to buy a thread "chaser" and not a tap so you don't remove any more thread than what is damaged. Be very careful starting it in and you will save the hub. Otherwise, remove the hub and go in from the backside, which would be preferable for a shop with a lift anyway. And faster. |
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We do have a list going for Atlanta Pelicanites that Blackbird started. We are notified of Atlanta events and gatherings. We should have sticker of sorts to identify our fellow brethern. SmileWavy I might need rcecale expertise as my 915 is acting up. |
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How do I get on the list?
Sorry about the hijack... |
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Carnutzz, I don't believe that was me at that particular Home Depot. :(
While I do tend to frequent that fine establishment, my trips are usually limited to either the Dallas Hwy HD or the Vinings HD, right next to their HQ (I work near there as well.) I'm always on the look out for other P-cars. Had a nice little run with a C4S a few weeks ago down Atlanta Rd. Was pretty fun, to say the least. ;) It would be great to have some kind of sticker on our cars so we know at least can recognize a fellow Pelican. Maybe some secret hand-wave out the window or something. SmileWavy Zeke, I have a new set of thread chasers I'll use to clean out my threads. Gonna order all new bolts from Pelican when I get home this evening. Following Grady's advice of installing the schnorr washers, even though the PET doesn't call for them. Couldn't hurt!!! Randy Randy |
Let me add some thoughts about the bolts (socket head cap
screws), washers and moon plates: For a lock washer like the Schnorr washer to work there needs to be a difference in hardness among the materials. The tin cover that retains the CV boot is very soft plated steel that was easily formed into its convoluted form. The Schnorr washer is very hard spring steel. I think it is slightly harder than the 12.9 bolts. These are alloy steel forged bolts with rolled threads – about as strong as you can get. I think the reason the moon plates and Schnorr washers were left out of some models was a simple “how to reduce manufacturing costs” decision. None of the bean counters consulted the design engineers. The problem doesn’t show up when PAG assembles everything with all new parts. When there was a problem with a car that had been serviced, the blame fell to the technician. With no Schnorr washer or moon plate, the soft steel cover can deform under the head of the bolt and eventually relieve the clamping pressure. The same is true with just a Schnorr washer under the bolt head because it has the same OD as the bolt head. The moon plates provide three functions: First they spread the load so as to not deform the tin cover. Second they provide an intermediate hardness material for the Schnorr washer to properly bite into. Finally they connect two adjoining bolts to prevent turning of a surface between the tin cover and the moon plate. The M10 moon plate I’m looking at is from a ’72-’73 and is 2.50 mm thickness. A well used M10 Schnorr washer measures a nominal 1.0 mm. A new Schnorr washer measures about the same. This is not measuring the conical spring effect as the Schnorr washer becomes flat under the compression from the bolt. The combination of adding a Schnorr washer and a moon plate adds 3.5 mm to the required bolt length. The bolts have a thread pitch of 1.5 mm/turn. This means that an existing bolt will end up 2 1/3 turn less penetration in the flange. I measure a ’69-’71 flange as having six turns of threads for the bolt to be flush on the back side. If the bolt originally had little penetration past flush of the flange this means the bolt could engage only about half of the threads in the flange. I think that only three threads will pull out. I prefer to see 1-2 threads penetration with 1 ½ as the ideal. The moon plates see some pretty significant deformation from the teeth of the Schnorr washers and the clamping force of the bolt. I may rethink reusing them more than twice. I would certainly turn them over after the first use. These 12.9 bolts are commercially available and from our host. In the lengths we are talking about they usually come in 5 mm increments of lengths. The Factory specified the exact length for each application. I am measuring a Factory bolt at 52 mm. Any competent machine shop can mount the bolt in a collet and cut it to the desired length. You want to stress that there be absolutely no damage to the threads or shank of the bolt. Carefully dress the last thread toward the end for proper starting. If the threads in the flange need repair, a Helicoil is the best product. The flange is easy to remove from the transmission. The repair should be done on a mill to keep the threads in the proper axis. All this may seem like excessive attention to something as simple as a few bolts. Randy is lucky he was practically stopped. I have seen the situation where the loose inner CV took off the starter motor along with some of the transmission case and engine case, not to mention the exhaust system, cooler and more. Just remember that your life and that of your 911 depend on these bolts proper functioning. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116545224.jpg Best, Grady |
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Took a few pics this evening after disconnecting both sides. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116552089.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116552102.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116552114.jpg Figured since I had the rear-end raised, I might as well replace the cap screws on BOTH sides and to also include the schnorr washers in the stackup. My guess is the cap screw on the right in pic 1 would be te last one to finally give way. Closer shots in pics 2 and 3 show the thread damage. I'll be running a thread chaser through the flanges just to make sure they aren't damaged. Calling Pelican in the AM to get 12 cap screws and 12 schnorr washers on order. Also going to order #4 from the pic below. Seems to have come up missing. Must have fallen off when it all came apart. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116109223.jpg I'll try for more pics tomorrow...in the day light. Thanks again to everyone! Randy |
Randy,
Good eyes. Was there an end cap on one side and not the other? Look and see if the flange has the space cut for a gasket or is it flat? I don’t think #4 – End Cap is a spare part although I may be wrong. I think it is installed on later 911s and is available only with a complete axle assembly or with the boot kit that includes a new CV and hardware. If it is a spare part, please post the part number. What do you think the bent bolts hit? You are welcome; however I should thank you and everyone else. This Forum gives me a reason to get up every morning. I’m getting very tired of doctors. The latest is a little spot on the inside of my left ring finger is melanoma (now surgically removed.) Now come all the tests to see if there is metastatic melanoma. Ugh. Best, Grady |
Argh, I feel for you, Grady! Hope they return a clean bull of health. I just had a carcinoma removed a few weeks ago. Not something to mess with, that's for sure!
Here's a bit more info on the car... It was the driver's side shaft that came off. The passenger side was still intact; all 6 bolts still tightened down. As far as the end cap goes. I seem recall that both sides had them when I removed my tranny last year. Currently, the passenger side still has the cap attached. The driver's side end-cap is not to be found. Looking at the end of the shaft, all I can see is a lot of grease....black grease! The 6 cap screws were coated with the stuff, as were the moon clips. As stated above, my guess is that it came off when the shaft disconnected last night. Grady, looking at this pic you posted in this thread, http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116109434.jpg It looks like part number 15, up towards the top, could be the cap. What say you? Randy |
Randy,
I think axle assembly #1 and the associated repair sets are for the 100 mm CV axle that has the friction welded outer connection and six M8 bolts. Axle assembly #2 and associated repair sets are the 108 mm CV and has M10 bolts at both ends. I’ll check PET6 again tomorrow. You ask Pelican Parts and perhaps look at a local Dealer’s parts display. They can print you pages with part numbers and illustrations. Best, Grady |
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neuro stimulation is everlasting life.
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ryan |
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I'm presently in discussions with the Pope on establishing a joint communique'. As soon as that's resolved you're in. |
man, i'm catholic..and in the friggin' SOUTH! i'm half way to paradise with you..
ryan |
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ps: I'm RC |
ditto..bell-ringer in the early 70's..and enough cathechismal background (sp?) to at leat face-off with the occasional, inspired missionary baptist who demands to know WHY....why 'i worship mary'...and 'why i confess my sins to a priest'. don't i know god can hear ME?? hope we haven't hijacked..what was this thread?
ryan |
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