Thinking of going MSD

[Lorenfb]

"If you don't open the plug gaps up when using MSD's (or any other high-energy ignition), you cannot take advantage of what they can do."

- Rennsport -

You can achieve the same result with the Bosch units by increasing the gap too.
They provide more than enough spark energy (>100mj) and voltage (>45,000) for wider gaps.

Have to like all the "cooks" without supporting data nor objective results.

Note: Those that use the multiple spark units need to order & carry spare caps & rotors
from Pelican for those burnt rotors & caps that result form excessive spark voltage & energy.

[Randy Blaylock]

I have used Bosch, Permatune and MSD ignitions on everything from carbureted 911s, to CIS 911s, to built 930s (twin MSD) to late model stock cars.

All of them have been dynoed using many types of ignition componentry, and without exception they all ran with less advance, and made incrementally more power using MSD and wider gaps.

I have had multiple outright failures of CD boxes other than MSD, and running issues as well.

I have never had any problems with caps nor rotors, not even the 12 post type.

Those are my data points and objective experiences.

[araine901]

Loren, so what you are saying is the Bosch is as good as the MSD and only cost five times more?

[randywebb]

Funny! But if you have one already, that changes the $$ calculations.

Loren has not pointed this out, but he rebuilds the Bosch units -- for a fee. I don't know whether he is correct or not about the items above, but he does carry a bias.

OTOH, if you are a concours person, a big ol' msd unit sitting there is not going to win you that trophy - or candy bar or whatever they get...

[Lorenfb]

"Loren, so what you are saying is the Bosch is as good as the MSD and only cost five times more?" - araine -

What? There're many sources of Bosch CDI units, i.e. rebuilt or used which
are NOT 5X an MSD. Warren on this web site has also described how to test
and rebuild them yourself. Bosch units are available at reasonable prices.
You just need to do some research. Pelican probably could even obtain
a Bosch unit at a reasonable price, if one asked, given their huge number
of suppliers.

"All of them have been dynoed using many types of ignition componentry, and without exception they all ran with less advance, and made incrementally more power using MSD and wider gaps. " - Randy BlayLock -

"ran with less advance" & "incremently more"

Please! Let's have some real data.

"I have had multiple outright failures of CD boxes other than MSD, and running issues as well."
- Randy Blaylock -

That's definitely NOT the norm. Sounds like someone doesn't know about the
proper hookup & use of the Bosch units. Many Porsches over 30 years old
still have the original Bosch unit running perfectly.

Some people just continue to forget about reality:
If the technology is so GREAT, why haven't Porsche & others adopted it,
and please don't claim patents because Porsche could buy the patent
with its' petty cash account.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Moke81
I've noticed with the MSD that it revs smoother,

when I first did the install I was running the stock CIS & cams. It did run a little cleaner starting up and at very low rpms with the CIS adjusted a little rich. It was noticable on the start and warm up cycles.

[Shocker]

Well, my personal experience with MSD igniton units spans several different types of cars from V8 muscle cars to my last 911.

When my Bosch unit bought the farm, I decided to try out a new 6A I had in a box from a previous project. I had dynoed my 911 2.4T just about 2 months before. Installation was a breeze and it ran great.

Seat of the pants impressions are much like the others, smoother running and better throttle response. I took it for a quick dyno session (nice to have a buddy with a AutoDyn!)

After the 3rd run I averaged an increase of 3hp and 5ftlbs torque. Gas mileage went up 2mpg on average. This was a stock 1972 2.4 T with properly jetted 40mm Webers, .0.42 gap and NGK plugs.

Seems like that is some "real data". I have owned 2 911's. One with a Bosch which died and my current car with a Permatune that is working fine. If it dies, in goes the MSD setup.

As far as "reality" goes, the "reality" is that Autotronic Controls Corp revenue stream (60m/year) is from ignition sales. There is no way ACC would license the patent to any other company. They are very successful in the retail market and they wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Porsche does not design or create the ignitions right? They simply submit a spec and Bosch or Marelli build it for them.

Either way, the MSD is a workable alternative to Bosch/PermaTune.

Mike
'77 911 3.0

[Randy Blaylock]

The data is right there in the statement.

I guess Porsche must be the ones screwing up the hookup and use, since they were O.E. units that failed. The MSD units that replaced them have not.

That's one reality.

[Lorenfb]

"After the 3rd run I averaged an increase of 3hp and 5ftlbs torque. Gas mileage went up 2mpg on average. This was a stock 1972 2.4 T with properly jetted 40mm Webers, .0.42 gap and NGK plugs." - Shocker -

Where's the EXACT before & after:

1. same day
2. same dyno
3. exact same setup on engine
4. same dyno operator
5. same fuel
6. etc., etc., & etc.

"As far as "reality" goes, the "reality" is that Autotronic Controls Corp revenue stream (60m/year) is from ignition sales. There is no way ACC would license the patent to any other company. They are very successful in the retail market and they wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot." - Shocker -

It's VERY simple for Bosch to design around any patent if the technology had merit.
By-the-way, $60M/yr is in the Small Change Draw at Porsche (or Bosch)
to not only buy the patent, but also buy the company.

Bottom Line: By the time the next sparks occur in a mutiple spark system,
the additional the energy contribution to the fuel charge is ZERO. That's why
Porsche used twin plugs. That's the reality!

[Randy Blaylock]

Nobody said anything about multiple spark and it's effect on power. I think most everyone knows this is a marketing ploy.

The reliable ability to fire wider plug gaps has been mentioned, and it's quite relevant.

Some of my data points were different under the exact criteria you use. I understand scientific testing methods quite well.

The exact numbers however are immaterial to the extent that it's sufficient to say simply enough, that they were incrementally better. To what degree is irrelevant, the simple fact that the data showed a superior distinction is enough. Also, the responsiveness distinction in certain cars, like pig-fat carbureted race cars is something that is difficult to quantify or see on a dyno, it's something that is better felt under real world situations, an objective measurement that also is difficult to quantify.

I'm not an owner, nor do I have any vested interest in promoting MSD products, except to say that my experiences have shown superior performance in relevant categories.

I don't care to post dyno sheets, or any other physical proof of my experiences, to substantiate to you what my experiences have been. I don't save hard copies of old data like this that has no value to me beyond trying to prove on a silly forum to an antagonistic person what my realities have been.

I don't care about patents, how much money anyone has, or whatever implications those things have on the performance of different company's ignition systems.

It's quite enough for my needs to simply catalog the general results in my memory banks for future reference, and for the expression of my opinion when topics like this come up.

[pwd72s]

I'm sticking with Bosch mainly for looks reasons. I'm not an electronics guy, so don't want to get into a debate on which works better. But hey, I'm still running my original CDI unit...never out of the car. I also carry a spare, just in case. 33 years isn't bad, right?

[Lorenfb]

Here are the technical facts:

1. The widerly accepted minimum spark energy (see Bosch tech books)
is about 30 to 60mj for complete ignition of the fuel charge. The Bosch unit
provides about 100mj.

2. The minimum spark voltage is about 25KV to 35KV. The Bosch unit provides
about 43KV.

3. The spark burn time of the Bosch unit is about 100 to 200us which is
basically the same for all CDIs.

Spark values which exceed the above, contribute basically nothing to an
ignition system, but only stress all the components, e.g. caps, rotors, &
wiring.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by pwd72s

33 years isn't bad, right?

nope. Bosch is a great ignition.

fwiw.. The high performance production MerCruiser race engines come from the factory with MSD. Every offshore racer runs an MSD after blowing the GM copy ignition. My friends Al drag engine runs 80psi of boost, a kevlar blanket, and an MSD. etc, etc. I heard the Crane has good marine reviews but nobody uses it.

go figure

[Randy Blaylock]

Complete ignition of what fuel charge?

People having plug fouling issues under challenging mixture conditions have found that wider gaps help reduce this problem. Real world experience has shown that the single change to an MSD CD ignition solves many problems that Bosch CD units can't.

In most ordinary circumstances (95%) there is no practical benefit, and just as surely there are situations where it is a proven fact that MSD CD boxes will work where Bosche CD boxes will not.

[Rick Lee]

I installed a 6AL recently and it was ok, but nothing great. Idle is better, but I didn't notice any more throttle response. I think I gapped my plugs at .45. Should I try wider? I sold my CDI box for enough to cover the MSD and Blaster coil.

Since my car always smells a bit rich, I was hoping the bigger spark would make a more efficient burn. Dunno.

[al lkosmal]

Installed the MSD 6A and blaster coil over a year ago. My rebuilt Bosch worked great. My (blue-1977 vintage) Permatune worked great. My MSD does not provide a huge difference, but works great, costs less and is new. I recommend it as a better price/performance alternative.

[randywebb]

1. The data are not right there - Loren is asking for you to post raw numbers, or perhaps a plot. You gave a summary stmt. -- what would go in the Discussion section of a scientific manuscript. Loren wants what would go in the Results section. -- Now, whether that is reasonable or not is a different question.

2. "If the technology is so GREAT, why haven't Porsche & others adopted it..." Loren, msd no doubt makes quite a bit on their Intellectual Property since they make many untis for many different cars with quite large volume. Even if not, they might not care to sell anyway.

But the above begs the real issue -- the msd is an aftermarket device. P AG does not market to that segement -- they make new cars with improved coil on (spark) plug devices operated by an evoloution of the DME system. P AG never made the ignition units themselves - they always bought them from Bosch - and still do.

If I had Paul's car, I would keep the Bosch box. And I pledge to keep a Bosch box in it always after he gives me the car.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Rick Lee


I think I gapped my plugs at .45. Should I try wider?

Steve always repeats .040 with the MSD.. as he's done again on page 1. He also told me to change the 36 venturis on my carbs to 34's, and that I'll love them. I confirmed my new love when a 3.2 Carrera guy told me

my car pulls much stronger than his stock engine.

[Shocker]

Loren, the dyno test was done 2 weeks after the first one. The weather was pretty much the same, the same dyno, operator and engine setup. No changes to the wires or the plugs, cap, rotor etc. Just the ignition box. Of course it had different fuel, but the same I always run.

I am sure Bosch could design its way into whatever they want, but it would infringe on MSD's patents. The US is a big market for Bosch and it will not risk a lawsuit just to make a few extra bucks. Bosch does not market retail CDI boxes for many applications, so they are obviously not interested in that market.

I feel that the MSD box is a good upgrade for most cars. It was originally designed to provide better fuel burn in cars with less than optimal ignition systems.

My experience with MSD ignition boxes has been great and I am sticking with them.

Mike

[araine901]

Originally posted by randywebb
1. The data are not right there - Loren is asking for you to post raw numbers, or perhaps a plot. You gave a summary stmt. -- what would go in the Discussion section of a scientific manuscript. Loren wants what would go in the Results section. -- Now, whether that is reasonable or not is a different question.

2. "If the technology is so GREAT, why haven't Porsche & others adopted it..." Loren, msd no doubt makes quite a bit on their Intellectual Property since they make many untis for many different cars with quite large volume. Even if not, they might not care to sell anyway.

But the above begs the real issue -- the msd is an aftermarket device. P AG does not market to that segement -- they make new cars with improved coil on (spark) plug devices operated by an evoloution of the DME system. P AG never made the ignition units themselves - they always bought them from Bosch - and still do.

If I had Paul's car, I would keep the Bosch box. And I pledge to keep a Bosch box in it always after he gives me the car.

I was turned on to the MSD by ANDIAL who felt that it cured a lot of "issues" with carb cars that other ignitions (read factory) could not. I would have never put it in ten years ago (when it was blasphmany to put NASCAR parts on a german car) if I had not been givin the tip by Porsche factory trained technitions who ran it on thier dyno. I cant say that I feel it will provide much help to FI cars but Carb cars all seem to have notable improvment. I think it is safe to say that on carb cars it is at least as good and much cheaper than factory iginitons.