installed two cans of hc12a. WOW

[lvporschepilot]

Hey everyone,

First off, I live in Las Vegas and even the finest a/c is not so fine when it is 115 outside. I was stuck on I-15 in 95 degree weather for 30 minutes and the a/c blew cold the entire time. The engine got a bit warm of course but, I am most definitely impressed with the results on a stock '86 targa a/c system. And to think I was getting ready to pull the pin on the system!

[911S Targa]

I suffer in this Vegas heat, since the compresser was taken out years ago. I'm about to take out the blower in the smugglers box, and all the lines running from the smug box, to the engine bay.I just open the windows, side windows, and hope for a breeze.

My next Porsche WILL have AC though.

[doug petty]

thats good news cause I was going to leave mine out
since all the not so good news from the board about
how bad the system sucked.
should be worth putting back in before next summer.

[lvporschepilot]

If either one of you talk to Carl's place before I do, mention this stuff. No snake oil here.

[Steve 82SC]

I just repaired the air on my 82SC and vacumed it down....no leaks. I had three cans of R12 left, so I used it with wonderful results. However, I recharged my 95 Saab with HC12a from Fox Tool & Supply. Even with the air conditioning set on low, my wife doesn't like to be in the Saab, describing it as "painfully cold." If I'd ever have to recharge the 911, I wouldn't hesitate to use the HC12A.

Steve

[ruf-porsche]

Originally posted by Steve 82SC
Even with the air conditioning set on low, my wife doesn't like to be in the Saab, describing it as "painfully cold." If I'd ever have to recharge the 911, I wouldn't hesitate to use the HC12A.

Steve

Actually if the fan speed is set to low, the air coming out of the vent will be colder than if the fan was set to high. Since you are not pushing as many cfm on the low setting, the evaporator does give up as many btu, hence the air is colder.

If it is painfully cold, turn on the heat at the same time to temper the air.

[Bobboloo]

I hope that isn't the propane based stuff. It's dangerous.

[WydRyd]

Sounds like u guys need the PerformanceAire under-pan static condensor. It's freakin huge & supposedly will freeze ur nutz off

[wholberg]

Originally posted by Bobboloo
I hope that isn't the propane based stuff. It's dangerous.

From an A/C website:

"HC12 is a hydrocarbon, usually some mix of butane or propane. It will explode with an ignition source. Light up a cigarette if you have an evaporator leak and your car becomes a bomb. Professionals don't use it because of this very reason."

While the above statement is perhaps a little inflammatory (Har!), I think the term "bomb" is an exaggeration. R12 is flammable, and the greatest risk is a buildup of fumes in the passenger compartment which may cause a fire.

It is, however, a much more efficient refrigerant than R12 or HFA134a, and I think that a refrigerant system could be designed to minimize the risks.

The reason that professionals do not use it is threefold...
1) the EPA forbids the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in cars,
2) their liability insurance likely does not cover the handling of flammable gases, and
3) the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants voids personal automobile liability coverage (they don't want to get sued if your car burns to the ground and the insurance company won't pay).

Another reason I am leery of pressurized propane/butane mixtures is the following story that gave me more respect for these gases than I previously had.

My dad was the safety inspector for a major gas and electric company in Arizona for several years, and had to investigate all industrial accidents for the company. In the late '70's or early '80's he investigated an accident where a guy died in the welding shop It turned out that a hot spark from an arc welder burned into the guy's butane lighter that was in the outer pocket of his coveralls while he was welding. The spark detonated the butane and his left arm was blown off at the shoulder. The guy died before the ambulance got there.

I subsequently did a calculation on the explosive equivalent of 1 oz. of butane and it was equivalent to 1/4 stick of dynamite, or something like that (I cannot remember).

A pound or so in an auto A/C system...I don't know.

[wholberg]

If you run R12 in your car, you might want to install this in the passenger compartment. It's cheap insurance.

http://www.safehomeproducts.com/SHP2/sm/Gas_Alarms_with_battery.asp?b=ie6b&w=795&h=522&f=N&frompg=118&topg=118&menupage=5

I can't get it to link to the right page, but the website has 12VDC models for under $50. Propane gas is heavier than air, so it could be permanently installed under a seat, out of sight.

[Jayt]

HC-12 is a flammable hydrocarbon gas.

Neither R-12 or R-134a are flammable.

[Tim Polzin]

12 ounces of propane in an A/C system is illegal when 100 gallons of propane in a school bus is perfectly ok.

Yup, makes a lot of sense to me.

Tim

[dhoward]

Good thing gasoline isn't dangerous....

[lvporschepilot]

Seriously, I was about to say, good thing gasoline isn't dangerous. We drive a bomb every day. Cars are more lethal than guns and kill many more people each day. I am more worried about the lunatic driving next to me than the very slight possibility that my flammable refrigerant might explode.

There are no reported issues of hc12a causing any harm to anyone. The only reason the EPA has NOT approved the use of hc12a is because HC12a has NEVER BEEN TESTED. Naturally, if it has not been tested they cannot say either way on the issue. Whatever website someone found that says the EPA has banned the use of hc12a is incorrect because the epa has not even looked into the stuff yet. If the epa found hc12a to be harmful to people (more harmful than gasoline or better yet, a 5000 psi hydrogen tank for hydrogen cars lol) then that product would surely not be allowed to be manufactured or imported in this country. If you think r134a is so great, why don't you check out this website. www.deadly134.com

I researched the subject of safety in my Porsche very well before I decided to put this stuff in. I checked with my own resources as well as the company I purchased it from. Although I listened very well to what the gentleman who sold the product had to say about it, I took it very lightly because I know he is trying to make a living but, only after I did my own research did I found out that he is correct in his findings of it being a safe product.

For those of you who might be nay-sayers on this subject, I without a doubt respect you but, I must push you in the direction of researching your findings more thoroughly. More importantly, do not post your findings from a website that is trying to sell a different product. It reminds of the dispute between ac and dc power I read about in history class. One company bastardized the other until one day the ac power company found out that the electric chair was rolling off dc power. They advertised not to use dc because you would be funding use of the electric chair. Or as the called it, "death power". Asinine, but the scam worked. Same goes with these a/c companies. No product is 100% completely safe but they all will work fine and safe when used correctly.

check out www.deadly134.com

JS

[Seeeu911]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
yikes. sounds like it can go from really cold to really hot in an instant.

LOL.. BOOOMM GAS baby

[wholberg]

Originally posted by dhoward
Good thing gasoline isn't dangerous....

Yeah, of course it is. Propane refrigerants are used more widely in Europe and we don't hear about cars exploding every day. I might even try the stuff myself. My car was converted to 134a and it blows OK cold, but hardly worth turning on above 95 degrees. I know the risks, at least.

I want to know why more research has not been done towards the use of perfluorinated hydrocarbons (all fluorines instead of hydrogens attached to the carbons). Perfluoropropane to perfluorooctane can be used as refrigerants, they are non-flammable, of low toxicity, are photodegraded in the troposphere rather than the stratosphere, so even if they produced ozone-damaging products (which is unlikely) they do not make it up to the ozone layer (no reply necessary, just a rant).

[scottb]

Originally posted by wholberg
A pound or so in an auto A/C system...I don't know.

How about a full tank of gasoline, and several fuel lines throughout the car, including within a foot or so of the seats?

This is an age-old debate on this board, and I don't think it will ever be resolved. Some people swear by HC-12, others think it's snake oil. To each his own, I guess....

[kuehl]

I guess we gotta hook up our wide bands and see what the best AFR is !

[Hugh R]

Jim Sims says that propane/butane mixtures don't pick up the compressor oil very well and that you get a shorter compressor life. I'm going from memory here and I could be wrong, but he also says if your converting to 134a you need to use the 134a compressor oil, not what was left over when you had R12 in the system.

[ruf-porsche]

Originally posted by tcar
Hundreds of thousands of cars, mobile generators, furnaces are powerded by propane. Lot of refrigerators use propane, too.

Not including the million of propane barbeque grilles.