Who has owned a both a 964 and an early hotrod

Shuie · 11-04-2005, 07:57 AM

Im thinking of selling off my '72 3.2 swap project for a newer car. More specifically a 964. Im looking for the pros and cons and why I should or shouldnt consider it.

Pros:
better suspension
readily available engines for future transplants
AC
drive it in any weather

What about the cons? Who has owned both that can share some opinions on them?

Thanks for the help.

911-32 · 911-32's Garage

Newer cars feel heavy, paradoxically, even when you lighten them IMHO.

Tyson Schmidt · 11-04-2005, 08:09 AM

I think they make great daily driver's that can also be hot-rodded for track use without sacrificing as much comfort and convenience as an early car.

I have every intention of someday making my C2 a track beast with a fiberglass hardtop and full cage. The A/C on these cars adds very little to the weight, and as an additional benefit, running the A/C adds no extra heat to the engine, since the condensor is in the left front fender.

They already have awesome brakes, and respiond really well to just a spring and shock upgrade, some swaybars, and lightening them up. Probably the cheapest base car because it already has all the goodies. (3.6, G-50, great brakes/ABS, coil-overs)

I'd suggest getting a '92 or newer for the Cup wheels, aero mirrors, larger rear brakes, and better engine with plastic intake, and updated cylinders/head gaskets.

Shuie · 11-04-2005, 08:09 AM

fair enough. They are heavier. I accpet that.

What about the steering? How sterilized does a 964 feel comapred to an early car. One of my favorite things about the 911s ive driven (not many) is the feedback to the driver. I can feel everything the car does. How does the 964 compare?

Shuie · 11-04-2005, 08:10 AM

thanks Tyson!

Tyson Schmidt · 11-04-2005, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shuie
fair enough. They are heavier. I accpet that.

What about the steering? How sterilized does a 964 feel comapred to an early car. One of my favorite things about the 911s ive driven (not many) is the feedback to the driver. I can feel everything the car does. How does the 964 compare?

I just recently installed new steering rack bushings and a MOMO steering wheel on my friend's '94 C2, and it made a world of difference in steering feel/feedback.

The old rubber rack bushings made the steering feel mushy. I believe the new replacements are a harder rubber. The problem that I found was after tracking the car and getting the power steering fluid andrack hot, the bushings became so soft that the steering wheel would stay off center in the last direction you turned the wheel.

Also, after removing the heavy airbag steering wheel, the lighter wheel greatly enhanced steering feel. It was truly night and day, and it convinced me I have to do this to my own car.

BlueSideUp · 11-04-2005, 11:10 AM

The replacement bushings you installed are improved OEM parts?

This has been discussed many times but how do you feel about the 993 vs. 964? The price difference is becoming smaller but the 964 generally still leaves about 10K on the table.

I have only driven a '71 911S and a '91 964 C2.

FredC · FredC's Garage

Shouie...I had a 69E targa for 25 years, originally started with a 2.0, went to a 2.4 then a 2.5, then sold the motor and tranny and put in a 1980 strong 3.0 with a 915 transmittion, huge effort due to electronics but ended up with a scary fast ride...called it the road rocket and scared myself silly for a couple of years until my wife made me sell it...too loud, no heat, no comforts...well I bought a 91 964C4 thinking I would dearly miss my scary ride...not so! the 964 is everything I could ever expect in a truly memorable experience. comfort, reliability, I can roll the windows up and talk on the cellphone and I can put the pedal to the metal on a twisty road and feel the exhilerance (and much more...steering, braking, acceleration confidence) that the 69 gave me. Someone told me get the newest car you can afford...I will modify that and tell everyone to get a 964 C4. I'm sold!!!

Good luck!

Fred C.

KobaltBlau · 11-04-2005, 11:21 AM

Tyson, what spring/shock and sway bar package do you like to use for a combination street/DE 964? In other words, what is equivalent to 22/29s, bilstein sports, and Smart racing 23mm sways on an SC?

Thanks!

jpnovak · 11-04-2005, 11:41 AM

I would love a 964 as a daily driver. I think they are fantastic cars. I am not convinced I would get rid of the early car though. Sherman, drive the 3.2 before making that final decision.

Seahawk · 11-04-2005, 12:07 PM

964's will remind you of what you fell in love with concerning the early cars, but they are not as raw nor as interesting to drive. That said, and just returning from a very spirited drive in my 94 Targa, there are occasions when I am pleased it is not as raw or as interesting.
Reenlist has the better 964 forum. I suggest that you spend some time there. I really do enjoy the 964, as much for the retro styling as for the performance. Tough combo to beat.

Tyson Schmidt · 11-04-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSideUp
The replacement bushings you installed are improved OEM parts?

This has been discussed many times but how do you feel about the 993 vs. 964? The price difference is becoming smaller but the 964 generally still leaves about 10K on the table.

I have only driven a '71 911S and a '91 964 C2.

Yes, the improved part is OEM. I think it just higher temp rubber.

993 VS. 964. I like the handling of the 964 better. The 993 is a fantastic street car, and handles better than the 964 up to 8/10ths. Unfortunately the rear toe correcting axle is a real disadvantage on the track in stock form.

The semi-trailing set-up on the 964 means it still handles like a 911, and can be throttle-steered predictably. The 993 keeps correcting the toe, which masks where the limit of adhesion is for the driver. You need to replace all the rubber bushed links in the rear suspension with the racing versions with heim joints, and properly bump-steer the rear to make them predictable.

Tyson Schmidt · 11-04-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KobaltBlau
Tyson, what spring/shock and sway bar package do you like to use for a combination street/DE 964? In other words, what is equivalent to 22/29s, bilstein sports, and Smart racing 23mm sways on an SC?

Thanks!

On the cheap, I'd get Bilstein Sports front and rear, with Eibach linear rate springs. If you lean towards street comfort, then get progressive-rate H&R's.

I like the RS adjustable sways front and rear.

And an FVD strut brace, which is identical to the facory piece that came on the Cup cars.

KobaltBlau · 11-04-2005, 12:34 PM

Cool, Tyson. What's the next step up in dampers? the step up to Moton Clubsports is not a small one.

kiesan · 11-04-2005, 01:24 PM

I have both and obviously there is no comparison. I have been using my C2 as a daily driver the last couple months and I really can't think of a car I'd rather do that with. For me, its the near perfect combo of old and new.

Tyson Schmidt · 11-04-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KobaltBlau
Cool, Tyson. What's the next step up in dampers? the step up to Moton Clubsports is not a small one.

The next step up is PSS9's.

My problem with them is that they are under-sprung, and over-damped when the struts are set full stiff. The springs could be changed cheaply enough though.

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Quote:

993 VS. 964. I like the handling of the 964 better. The 993 is a fantastic street car, and handles better than the 964 up to 8/10ths. Unfortunately the rear toe correcting axle is a real disadvantage on the track in stock form.

I agree, there is too much soft rubber in the stock 993 rear. But that is easily curable

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Quote:

The next step up is PSS9's.

Doesn't JIC have 964 implementation? If so that would be my choice

KobaltBlau · 11-04-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyson Schmidt
The next step up is PSS9's.

they don't make 'em for 964s, though, just 993s, right?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
Doesn't JIC have 964 implementation? If so that would be my choice

That is true Bill, I forgot about the new Cross stuff. they do make them for 964s.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
I agree, there is too much soft rubber in the stock 993 rear. But that is easily curable

easily, if not cheaply! The ERP monoball stuff isn't weather sealed, is it? Or are you talking about factory parts with stiffer rubber?

Tyson Schmidt · 11-04-2005, 02:43 PM

I just installed PSS9's on my buddy's '94 C2, so yes, they are definitely available for 964's.