Info about CD workshop manual ?

[RS-GT]

Does it contain the same information as the old red binders ?

As the binder 1-2 and 3-7 ?

Any comments about these CD that can be buy on e-bay ?

Thanks

[khamul02]

didn't purchase the ones on ebay but got a set on CD and they are complete and fairly easy to make out. Text is good but graphics could be better.

[Lorenfb]

"Any comments about these CD that can be buy on e-bay ?"

Copyright violations! Avoid potential problems for Pelican by not posting links.

[randywebb]

Maybe - maybe not. What material have you seen that is copyrighted??

And Pelican is certainly at no legal risk.

[khamul02]

Originally posted by Lorenfb
"Any comments about these CD that can be buy on e-bay ?"

Copyright violations! Avoid potential problems for Pelican by not posting links.

Dude, How many times have we seen the illustrations in those manuals in posts and on websites using them to sell products? I'm not saying it's right but a simple discussion about a cd version doesn't violate any copyright laws.

[Grady Clay]

Porsche AG and PCNA could solve this piracy problem by simply putting the Workshop Manuals and other technical information on CDs or as a free download, just as they have with PET. The complete parts PET CD (000.943.400.05) is available for US$11.04 retail from PCNA and less from our host. It is also available as a free download. The link is: pdf download from PCNA

Best,
Grady

[Lorenfb]

"Maybe - maybe not. What material have you seen that is copyrighted??"

All the Porsche manuals are copyrighted. eBay has removed copied Porsche
manuals from auctions because of that. That's why Rennlist does NOT allow
any links on their web site that refer to selling/purchasing of copyrighted material.

"Porsche AG and PCNA could solve this piracy problem by simply putting the Workshop Manuals and other technical information on CDs or as a free download,"

- Grady -

And Porsche should have:

1. free tech support for DIYs
2. reduced parts prices for older Porsches to maintain its "history"
3. new car discounts to those that "truly love" Porsches

[khamul02]

KILLER COMBACK

[Grady Clay]

Loren,

Good ideas. Why don’t you submit them to PCNA?

Did PAG and PCNA offer the PET CD because of the discussions here a few years ago? Who knows? My modest proposal is simply that they publish (US$11.04 retail) and post (free) what the pirates are steeling already. PAG is the Good Guy. Why spend the money on silk stockings chasing every little leak worldwide (Russia, China?) who copies printed copyrighted material on to CDs. Take the market away from the crooks by filling the void with the Factory stuff.

As I have said before, PAG can be the hero. For virtually no cost they can keep these cars alive and an incredible customer base intact.

Have you read ”911 Workshop Manuals”?

This is not meant as a “come back” but constructive discussion. You regularly have valuable input on this Forum, here’s an opportunity.

I think that PCNA should provide all this information. My reasoning is:

1) It is a good marketing stratagem to maintain a loyal customer base. The easy flow of technical information fosters that end.

2) The pirates are steeling it already and it is costly to attempt to protect. No matter what PCNA does, the off-shore sellers will continue.

3) The cost to provide this existing information is insignificant compared to the attempt to husband it.

4) It is in the mutual best interest of PAG, the stockholders (particularly the Porsche & Pïech families), PCNA, and their customers.
Everyone wins.


What information are we talking about?

A) The parts catalogue is already addressed with the availability of PET. I think it should be extended to include all prior P/Ns, a supersession progression list and a current retail price list of currently available parts through the PAG/PCNA system.

B) The Workshop Manuals for every Porsche. These already exist and should be easy to provide. I would like to see a system that allows for the continuous feedback and correction/augmentation of the original work. The Pelican Form and others are currently providing that service to owners.

C) The Technical Service Bulletins. This can arguably be a requirement to comply with US law regarding safety and emissions. This also allows owners to research important update issues with their cars.

D) The Service Information Technik pamphlets and Spec Books. There is a lot of important and historic information here.

E) Include all the race cars.

Are there more?


I think all of us want Porsche to be the best in the world. This is an area where we can help.

Best,
Grady

[Lorenfb]

I recently bought from Porsche the following manual sets:

1. 911 (early) - $400
2. 993 - $500
3. 928 - $200
4. 944 - $450
5. 911 (3.2) - $500

[randywebb]

I agree with the suggestions for P AG.

You say "All the Porsche manuals are copyrighted." No doubt. The problem is that we don't know exactly what was asked about at the top of the thread. That material may or may not be the same as anyone's copyright.

What the law really needs is a copyright abandonment doctrine, so if the holder fails to make information avaialble, then someone else can do so. That would prevent information from being lost forever.

[Grady Clay]

Loren,

Those prices are 1/2 to 1/3 the prices I have heard of. Share the good deal.

That said, I'll repeat my above argument about the pirates selling your $500 manual for $25.

Over the years I have paid dearly for some stuff and also had it given to me (some by PAG.) The 917 parts manual that Vasek Polak, Andial and Carl Thompson have was given to me by PAG. With their permission I ran copies for everyone.

My point is disseminating this information is beneficial to everyone and has no downside except to the pirates.

PAG/PCNA could develop a system where the accumulated Porsche knowledge, most not written, can be assimilated in a PAG system. I can't imagine anyone not willing to contribute to an open-info system.

I don¡'t think Porsche AG's new museum and restoration shop has the information necessary for their missions. Where could that info come from? From what I know about PAG's lost archives, it isn¡'t all there. The flow of info is a two-way street.


Randy, I'm not suggesting PAG abandon their copyright, although I suppose their actions might be argued in that direction. I don't want to see PAG loose their copyright when they can do better.

Best,
Grady


edit to fix some sort of posting problem

[randywebb]

Right, I know you aren't - this is a much larger problem than just old sports cars....

P AG could also donate to some group that was set up to further advance the early 911s. They could donate $$, technical help, or even donate or license the copyrighted materials. This would also let them off the liability hook for anything. They put the PET on a pdf CD so there is hope that they will do something for repair manuals.

Alternatively, people will continue to just swap or sell their manuals, or legally produce their own repair manuals (AutoBook, Bentley, Haynes, Clymers, etc.)

BTW, the posting of excerpts from any of the above is almost certain to be a fair use exception to copyright law....

[Lorenfb]

"Those prices are 1/2 to 1/3 the prices I have heard of. Share the good deal."

I work with most of the Porsche dealers here in SoCal as part of my business.

There's a problem asking Porsche to make available tech info for basically free:

1. Most/all OEMs such as BMW now charge independents (and probably their dealers)
a monthly on-line access fee of about $100/month. This tech stuff is being made
available at a max charge, e.g. one of my Porsche customers paid about $25K for
the new Porsche tester (hardware $13K + 1K/month subscription fee).

2. Porsche charges Alldata for access to all their tech literature which Alldata charges
about $150/month (includes other Euro/Asian cars). Anyone can purchase on-line
from Alldata all the OEM info needed.

So, because of the above, Porsche would never make their tech stuff available for free,
even the older stuff.

"The 917 parts manual that Vasek Polak, Andial and Carl Thompson have was given to me by PAG."

I spoke to Carl yesterday, but didn't ask about this. I think, though, he'd agree with
what I've said. Call him. He's still going to keep his shop in Long Beach even
though he sold his 917 parts.

[RS-GT]

I absolutely don't want to make any violations to Porsche copyright ! I just want to know if somebody use these type of workshop manual ? And is it LEGALLY available for the pre-80s 911 ?

Does these kind of CD are legal stuff ?; this is a example ?? :

Item number: 8032262589
PORSCHE 993 TWIN TURBO CD-ROM MANUAL

The only fully indexed CD available !

PORSCHE 993 TT,This full volume set covers all major service areas, including engine, transmission (both manual and tiptronic), chassis, body, heating and A/C, and extensive wiring diagrams. Also includes the Owner's manual for the 993

THE PRINTED MANUALS WHICH ARE NOT IN CIRCULATION ANYMORE RETAILED FOR OVER $ 650.00. THIS PDF-FORMAT IS EASY TO DOWNLOAD ON ANY PC OR NOTEBOOK. VERY RARE AND AGAIN EASY TO FIND ANYTHING WITHOUT SEARCHING THE WHOLE SET OF MANUALS. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS CD IS COPYRIGHT BY PORSCHE OF AMERICA .

RETAIL VALUE IS $ 650.00,

Thanks, John

[Lorenfb]

"I absolutely don't want to make any violations to Porsche copyright ! I just want to know if somebody use these type of workshop manual ? And is it LEGALLY available for the pre-80s 911"

The answer is yes. Porsche has not made available to the public any Porsche shop
manuals on CDs. Someone has scanned the paper manuals and copied the images
to a CD. Even if Porsche had placed the manuals on a CD format, copying those is
still a copyright violation.

[Richard964]

I got one of their manuals from Ebay and it was not worth the price. Those guys in Daytona have downloaded Porsche workshop manuals from ( a site that Porsche has since required to remove their manuals) and are poor quality scans, have the website marked across every page, are missing pages, not updated the material, and more problems. It even looks like Porsche has removed those guys from Ebay.

I for one think that it should be ok to make copies if the copyright holder doesn't want to market the material as Porsche has done. It'snot like one were selling Gone With The Wind outside Blockbuster for $5.00 and they have it for sale inside for $30.00 The manuals are mostly out of print and have been for many years. And didn't Porsche anounce (quietly) that they would not print any more manuals.

[Dan Owens]

Richard964,

Does anyone understand what "copyrighted material" means? If Porsche holds the copy right it's their material to do with what they want, whether you or anyone else likes it or not. They don't have to make it available to anyone as they own it. If you want to make a repair manual for your porsche or any other car then you're free to do that. Just take your car apart and put it back together keep notes and you're done. I agree I'd like the info for free but it's not mine to decide who gets it and certainly not to steal it through selling bootlegged or copied material for a profit. If this info was yours would you want people copying it and selling it for a profit and leaving you out of the loop or without any say about who, how or when it's distributed?

[Richard964]

Don't address that to me.
I agree that it shouldn't be free but it should be available.
If the copyright holder doesn't wish to produce his product and there is still a market/demand for it and someone else wishes to produce the product. Then there should be a mechanism to allow the free market system to work and ofcourse the original copyright holder should benefit and/or be compensated.
I am 100% positive that Porsche has been approached a few times to license the manuals but has refused.

[khamul02]

Why can't they just post the things on their website & be done with it!!