Wayne's High Performance 3.0L

[rlh930]

Originally posted by jim49ers
calif smog law is set at 1973 and older...asked that question last week at dmv...

From the ca.gov smog check Web site

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/StdPage.asp?Body=/Smogcheck/doineed.htm

Beginning April 1, 2005, the 30-year rolling exemption has been repealed. Instead, vehicles 1975 model-year and older will be exempt. Therefore, 1976 model-year and newer vehicles will continue to be subject to biennial inspection indefinitely.

[RLJ]

The 95mm cylinders can be bored and sleaved to 98mm. Been there done that, and bought a tee shirt.

1984 and newer heads work real well too.

Randy Jones
1971 911 "Iris"

[rlh930]

Originally posted by cab83_750
For those of you who went from 3.0 High Performance to 3.2 SS (or vice versa) out of a 3.0 case:

1. What is the price difference?
2. Is it worth the extra expense (or extra savings)? I am talking fun to $$ ratio.

I recently had the stock CIS 3.0 in my '73 rebuilt as a 3.2SS. Amazing difference. Power went from 180 to 246HP @ 6500, TQ is over 170 from 3000 to 7000 RPM, peaking at 220. My 930, off boost, always feels like it is in the wrong gear; the 3.2 always feels like it is in the right gear.

[Bobboloo]

Very nice Roger. What kind of engine management are you using?

Randy (cab83 750),

A 3.2 in an early car is a really nice combo. It's a treat to have torque on tap.

Building an S cam 3.0 with carbs will be fun motor and the sound will be a feast for the ears but for a daily driver street car a 3.2 CIS or EFI car makes a lot of sense.

My 73' has an 87' Euro 3.2 with a large port 78/79' CIS intake. I almost embarassed to open the decklid because it's not pretty. You can't argue with the street manners though. Great throttle response and plenty of low end torque. The intake really limits my peak horsepower but the car doesn't feel underpowered. Quite the contrary.

Don't be swayed by big HP numbers. Sure you can have braggin' rights but in the real world torque that comes on early is a treat in a street car. Engine management is an added plus.

If you go for the 3.0L with S cams and carbs be careful not to go too big on the ports just for the sake of getting bigger HP numbers considering your goal is a street motor. 36mm ports will limit your peak HP numbers but the trade off may be well worth it.

If your motor is a 78/79' 3.0L then your intake ports are already 39mm and this should influence your final decision as to where to go with this motor.

High strung motors are a bit like high maintenance women. Great to look at and fun to play with but on a daily basis can be a real PITA.

If you get a chance try driving some cars with different engine configurations. Find out what they feel like in the seat of the pants.

[Grady Clay]

cab83_750,

You have an interesting collection in your ’74 911:

Transmission 915 12 7230300
After the 915 there should be a slash and two digits indicating type.
and
12 = Limited slip differential (this should be the best early 12 disc type – is there a LSD?)
or
915/12 = Transmission without oil pump and [with] ground gears.

7 = Transmission for 6-cylinder engine
2 = 4-speed 915/01, 915/12 or 915/13
3 = Model year 1973
0300 = Sequential Number

The 915/12 has the higher quality ground gears than the shaved gear 915/13.
If this has been converted to a 5-peed, all bets are off as to what is inside.


Engine 6292115
6 = 6 cylinder engine
2 = 911SC USA
9 = Model Year 1979
2115 = Consecutive serial number starting with 0001.

What is your VIN?



In about 1980 we built several 3.5s (100x74.4) with 40IDAs. They were great street cars. They would run out of power about 6500 rpm even with 38 mm venturi but were outstanding between 3000 and 6000 rpm. There is no substitute for displacement and compression ratio.

Best,
Grady

[Bobboloo]

I completely missed the post where you posted your engine and tranny numbers. Thanks Grady.

Considering what you have to work with I think a displacement increase is the best place to spend your money. When you factor in the large intake ports and the 4-speed tranny bigger is the way to go.

Get a set of 98mm P+C's. Keep the big port CIS for now and backdate to early exhaust if you don't have one already. You will have a motor very similar to mine and I think you will be quite happy.

I'll be at the Big Bear run Sunday. If you are coming you can check out my car.

[rlh930]

Originally posted by Bobboloo
Very nice Roger. What kind of engine management are you using?

Thanks! I'm using a Motec M4 - you can just see it behind the left side stacks. Mahle 9.8CR P/C's and a GE60 cam also.

High strung motors are a bit like high maintenance women. Great to look at and fun to play with but on a daily basis can be a real PITA.[/B]

LOL - probably true but might be nice to find out first hand anyway!

[jmz]

Roger,
I bet that car is a blast to drive. Have you ever compared it to one of the many 3.6 conversions out there? The brut force of a 3.6 has to be really nice but a tricked out, short stroke, rev happy motor just might be more fun.

[Facey]

Originally posted by catca
I drove a customers 3.0 car the other day. It has S cams and 46 webers. NO flat spots and near perfect driveablility. It is all in the tunning. I am on not sure of the specs on his carbs but after driving this car I was impressed.

Cheers

YAY!!!! thats what i want to hear!

i am building one of waynes engines also, the 3.5L.... supposed to make some SERIOUS hp....and i'm using, as he says, a high life cam with 46mm webbers,46mm intake ports, 43mm exhuast, 100mm P&C's, B&B headers..... can u say short stroke, quick reving! (~72mm Stroke with 100mm Bore)


anyways... i just sold my HiPo 3L, it was based on a 2.7L, with new JE P&C's (9.8:1), tensioners, and a flowed CIS fuel head, SSI's.... it made some pretty wicked power (guessing 250 crank)...and was seriosuly loud.... at first i had some really high life cams, (custom ground), howevr i found the car undriveable below 20mph.... so i went to DC's version of the s cam....the 40? 50? w/e...... worked nice, didn;t notice any top end loss.....that might be because the CIS wasn't flowing enough to make proper use anyways...

the 3.2SS is neat, but if u are gonna start getting machine work done i figure u should go for gold!...ps-webbers (w/e size u chose) are the way to go!!

[randywebb]

" High strung motors are a bit like high maintenance women. Great to look at and fun to play with but on a daily basis can be a real PITA."

- Wise words. That's why you need a woman with torque.

[cab83_750]

Originally posted by Grady Clay
cab83_750,

You have an interesting collection in your ’74 911:

Transmission 915 12 7230300
After the 915 there should be a slash and two digits indicating type.
and
12 = Limited slip differential (this should be the best early 12 disc type – is there a LSD?)
or
915/12 = Transmission without oil pump and [with] ground gears.

7 = Transmission for 6-cylinder engine
2 = 4-speed 915/01, 915/12 or 915/13
3 = Model year 1973
0300 = Sequential Number

The 915/12 has the higher quality ground gears than the shaved gear 915/13.
If this has been converted to a 5-peed, all bets are off as to what is inside.


Engine 6292115
6 = 6 cylinder engine
2 = 911SC USA
9 = Model Year 1979
2115 = Consecutive serial number starting with 0001.

What is your VIN?



In about 1980 we built several 3.5s (100x74.4) with 40IDAs. They were great street cars. They would run out of power about 6500 rpm even with 38 mm venturi but were outstanding between 3000 and 6000 rpm. There is no substitute for displacement and compression ratio.

Best,
Grady

Grady,

Thanks for the cipher work. Now I have a somewhat background of my car.

Vin # is 9114 301073

[cab83_750]

Originally posted by Bobboloo


High strung motors are a bit like high maintenance women. Great to look at and fun to play with but on a daily basis can be a real PITA.

.

Have you not heard?????..............

"A woman only needs 3 animals:
a mink......... for when it is cold
a tiger......... for the bed
and a jackass ......... to earn a living."

[cab83_750]

So what is up with Competition Engineering??????? Made 6 calls, all answering machine responses, 1 voice mail for the business, and no return calls.


Is Ollie's as good as Walt? Anyone else besides Walt and Ollies? I am ready to spend!!!!!!!

[Zeke]

Originally posted by RLJ
The 95mm cylinders can be bored and sleaved to 98mm. Been there done that, and bought a tee shirt.

1984 and newer heads work real well too.

Sounds like a winner. Bobby likes the bigger displacement too, so I'll string along with him and others.

The thing is buying pistons to fit Nikasil cyls could be a bit tricky in my book. It's a lot easier to precision hone the cly to your clearance specs than to work the piston. That's why P and C's come in sets, IMHO. If you do what Randy here says, you can get exactly what you want.

I hear nothing bad about Ollies and I don't hear anything bad about EMS or EBS either. EMS (Engine Machine Service) is who Wayne used for the motor in the book. They're near Santa Monica, so even closer. I had a great conversation with the guys there about cranks and oiling. They get mey vote, but I really don't know much about it. You have to trust someone at some point. Give them a call.

EBS is in Reno, NV. They might be limited to head work and parts.

[rlh930]

Originally posted by jmz
I bet that car is a blast to drive. Have you ever compared it to one of the many 3.6 conversions out there? The brut force of a 3.6 has to be really nice but a tricked out, short stroke, rev happy motor just might be more fun.

I am sort of a traditionalist. A 3.6 would have been a whole lot cheaper, but something about the appearance of a stock 3.6 in the back of a '73 just doesn't do it for me. The 3.2SS/TWM/Motec route has the look I wanted while being more practical than Webers or MFI from an everyday use standpoint. The guys at Jerry Woods, who built the motor, went to great lengths to create what I was looking for and I really think it turned out great.

And yes, it is a whole lot of fun. I'm really happy to have gone this way.

[kenikh]

Originally posted by Bobboloo

Building an S cam 3.0 with carbs will be fun motor and the sound will be a feast for the ears but for a daily driver street car a 3.2 CIS or EFI car makes a lot of sense.

Don't be swayed by big HP numbers. Sure you can have braggin' rights but in the real world torque that comes on early is a treat in a street car. Engine management is an added plus.

If you go for the 3.0L with S cams and carbs be careful not to go too big on the ports just for the sake of getting bigger HP numbers considering your goal is a street motor. 36mm ports will limit your peak HP numbers but the trade off may be well worth it.

High strung motors are a bit like high maintenance women. Great to look at and fun to play with but on a daily basis can be a real PITA.

Can I offer one bit of perspective? I drive a 2.0 with 'S' cams and 36mm ports. It is a blast, in traffic or not. That's right, a TWO liter. I can say without a doubt that a 3.0 on Mod-S cams and 39mm ports will pull like a freight train from tickover to redline. Displacement dramatically softens what would be a soft bottom end on a smaller motor. A finicky temptress a 3.0 motor will not be; imagine it as a ripped Russian supermodel that can and will do everything well, without complaints. If you build this motor, you will NEVER regret it.

[A Quiet Boom]

As a guy who has built several smallblock V8 stroker engines up to 410CI I definately agree with kenikh. A larger engine has the effect of lowering the powerband of a camshaft when compared to a smaller engine. The custom cam in my last motor would be a 8-9k RPM cam in a 302, in the stroker 410 it fell off around 6800 and produced torque like a freight train from 2k to at least 6k. The previous cam would still be considered race only in a 302 but with the 410 on street tires I could literally sidestep the clutch at 1500 without stalling. In an effort to move the powerband up and bleed off some of the tire spinning bottom end I went with a fully ported version of the largest manifold availabe at the time, stage four ported heads and custom headers with 2" primaries. Result? The car could still break the tires loose in high gear on the freeway!

As a guy who went from a carbed 2.0E to a carbed 3.0SC in the same car with the same trans I'll definately go much more agressive on the cams when it's time for new P&C's. My current powerband is too broad to fully enjoy with 7:32 gears, I'd rather make more HP in the range the tranny can take advantage of. I'd essentially build a 3.0RS motor if I had the cash in hand.

[cab83_750]

Well guys. Depending on who you talk to, cylinders could be re-sleeved. Other machinists said no.

And guess what, it would cost approx. $1,700.00 to re-sleeve.


So, does anyone have a set of good Mahle 98 mm?

[randywebb]

The guy who did RLJ's car was not an ordinary mechanic...

I think you are on the right track, but check with Ollie's or Supertec or a place like that re resleeving before you give up.

Remeber the old axiom: Speed costs money -- How fast do you want to go into debt?

[damian911]

cab83 I too am in the same boat as you, i am looking thru the book and trying to get some info here and there and asking a lot of question to who ever will listen..... I am looking at the set up "Upgraded 3.0l CIS engine"., i guess i am choosing this one because it seems the most simple, it has 95mm jepistons,9;8;1 c/r., and i do not have to change many stock parts, keeping cis, heads,crank,and cynlds. although, it does say 964 cams? Do u know and u guys know if this is the stock cam, or is it an upgrade ? Damian