question on steering rack and column

[rnln]

has anyone replace the bearings (where the steering column come in place with the steering rack) with they still on the car? Is it possible?

[Ray B]

I'd say there is no practical way to do it in place. Tim Hancock rebuilt his and had a very detailed thread on this. You may be able to find it if you search his name. I recently replaced mine (donor was a '87) and the rack was like new inside. I can't imagine your bearings are worn out on that "new" of a car unless of extreme operating conditions.

[na2ub]

There are threads on this. I rebuilt my rack with new bearings without too much trouble. getting the rack out of the car, however, is a little fiddly, and I ended up lowering the whole front suspension and cross member. Not that difficult, though, and not too many hours. My bearings seemed fine, although i replaced them anyway. The one bearing that I had lost, in the one that guides the steering column, inside the rubber housing just below the u-joint in the smuggler's box. These apparently tend to dry out and rust, and disintegrate, and can cause the column to slop around when changing steering direction.

Doug

[rnln]

I know most steering racks doesn't need work yet, regarding 87 or newer. My car has only around 70+k miles but there is some kind of noise like creaking up front. I check the brakes, wheel bearings, etc. My wheel bearings are tighten but there is no help to the noise. It seem like this will be a hard to find problem. After reading one of the thread about rebuilding the rack. I am thinking of goving it a try by updo the column attached and lift it up a bit, while the rack is still in the car. By lifting the column, I might be able to pull the bearing out with several fingers. Not sure if it's possible.
Taking the rack off seem like there will be a lot of parts involve and I affraid.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln

. My car has only around 70+k miles but there is some kind of noise like creaking up front.

Torsion bar rubber bushing are probably shot.

[rnln]

RoninLB,
Maybe you can help to throw in some input here. I have done many search on this until I gave up quite a while.
The result I found of search on the torsion bar noise is more like squeaking. The sound I have is more like creaking and tend to happen when going up/down the payment. It pronouces more when going up/down while turning.
Another thought, is there a chance for the wheels bearings go bad even if the wheel is straight and tight (no play at all)?
And how to test Ball Joins?
Thanks.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln


torsion bar noise is more like squeaking. The sound I have is more like creaking
-------- squeaking creaking grinding etc can all happen under conditions. The rubber gets spongy and allow the torsion far to fall and may allow metal to metal contact. It may squeak & creak when turning as the differential between the wheels and tub gets pronounced and the rubber is twisting. Ay your 70k miles I'd say that it would be unusual for the rubber to be in good shape.

, is there a chance for the wheels bearings go bad even if the wheel is straight and tight (no play at all)?
And how to test Ball Joins?

---------- seems like a long shot from here as the rubber bushings go bad really fast. Then it's only a matter of what the owner can deal with. Ball joint check, bearings etc are another story I hope.

how about this. Take the car up to 65-70mph on a straight road. At a steady speed rock the steering wheel fast to move the car from the left line of your lane to the right line. Rock fast within your lane. If you see the front edge of your car lagging the steering wheel my much I would say your bushings are old and tired. If you do it consecutively a few times and the front never catches up.. etc

that makes sense I hope?

I think the serious issue is what kind of bushings you want ?

[rnln]

Ronin,
Thanks for help. There is a portion of your test that I don't understand. Can you try again, maybe in diff term?
"If you see the front edge of your car lagging the steering wheel my much"
Do you mean if I wiggle like that (I do it for fun once in a while when the road is empty or to get away from objects) then the car turns a little after the steering wheel turns? Is that what you mean "car lagging steering wheel"?
If so, I don't think this is the case. It's pretty solid, except the creak/breaking sound.
Some times I can even feel it. The thing make me wonder the most is that if I go up/down the road, the level of the noise is corresponce to the level of the elevation of the road. For example when I go down the parking structure (big slope) and turn, this sound get worst here. And at this level, I can feel it in my palm (holding steering wheel).
If it is steering rack, I don't think the level elevation would affect. If it's the wheel bearing, would the elevation of the road affect? What else can affect?

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln

"If you see the front edge of your car lagging the steering wheel my much"
Do you mean if I wiggle like that (I do it for fun once in a while when the road is empty or to get away from objects) then the car turns a little after the steering wheel turns? Is that what you mean "car lagging steering wheel"?

------- yes.

Try it this time while paying attention to the front. Snap the steering wheel fast.

My bro never noticed his front bushings were beat on his '88 until I showed him. It was his daily driver and was always good enough. You get used to things and it's easy to be a bit blinded by routine. What happens is the car slowly becomes sloppy and you just get used to it. Yours sound worse than his.

you could also get under there and look at the rear of the torsion bar and you'll see an "adjusting lever" that has the front height adjusting screw attached. With the weight of the car on it you'll probably see that the worn bushing is allowing the bar to fall from its proper center location. When it falls far enough your bar will be scraping metal.. by that time you'll have damaged bars.

I know I'm a little fixated on the bushings but stock bushing don't last long to start with. It's also kinda hard diagnosing a problem when you're dealing with worn parts in some connected area.

maybe your noise is from something else but 930 tie rods and new t-bar bushings will transform the car.




Some times I can even feel it. The thing make me wonder the most is that if I go up/down the road, the level of the noise is corresponce to the level of the elevation of the road. For example when I go down the parking structure (big slope) and turn, this sound get worst here. And at this level, I can feel it in my palm (holding steering wheel).
If it is steering rack, I don't think the level elevation would affect. If it's the wheel bearing, would the elevation of the road affect? What else can affect?

------------ the front suspension is isolated from the tub by the t-bar bushings. When you twist the tub or transfer weight the rubber bushings are also involved.

Also the stock tie rods have an isolator that wears. I don't think that's your problem but they wear out and get sloppy also.

hope your t-bars haven't bottomed out.


i hate to be the last word on this as it's only my best opnion on what's happening.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by na2ub


I rebuilt my rack with new bearings

Hey Doug,

did you go to a bearing supply shop for new ones ?

[rnln]

Originally posted by RoninLB
[B]Originally posted by rnln


you could also get under there and look at the rear of the torsion bar and you'll see an "adjusting lever" that has the front height adjusting screw attached. With the weight of the car on it you'll probably see that the worn bushing is allowing the bar to fall from its proper center location. When it falls far enough your bar will be scraping metal.. by that time you'll have damaged bars.

Ronin,
Sorry for more detail questions Ronin.
I got under the car and look at them to see if torsion bar is prox center the housing - A arm many times and found they are ok. But when I look at them, the car is on jack stands.
Should the car be on jack stands, or wheels have to be on the ground?
When I replace the bushing, is there a way I don't have to mess with the torsion bar setting, meaning the ride height.
Thanks Ronin.

[RoninLB]

from other pelicanheads


"As Bruce describes, when the bushings compress and the center line fo the torsion bar lowers below the center line of the control arm tube, the endcap (adjuster) is also affected. The bottom of the cast iron endcap starts to rub along the inside channel of the suspension cross member wearing down the endcap itself and, in effect, wearing a notch into the cross member. Per Bruce, one remeby is to put a bead weld on the bottom of the adjuster cap to build it back up and recenter the torsion bar."


"the front torsion bars rub on the inside of the a arms, about 3" from the rear. measure how far the height adjustment screw protrudes from the lever it screws into, and remove it. note the position of the lever after the screw is removed and mark the crossmember so it will go on the same way. pull off the lever and slide out the bar. you will see a spot on the bottom that's rusty and obviously been rubbing. for a temporary fix, some silver antisieze seems to stay for a while. for a proper fix, replace the rear a arm bushings, and clean and repaint the bar."



"The adjuster "cap" on the end of the bar wears into the aluminum support beam that it rides on. When it wears a groove in the beam it lowers the rear of the torsion bar causing it to rub inside the A-arm tube. If it's only rubbing a little, new bushings may raise it up enough to fix it. Of course most bushing replacements are not rubber and thus bring with them their own noise issues. If bushings aren't enough (they weren't for me) add a little weld to the bottom of the cap and smooth it out to restore the torsion bar to the center of the A-arm tube. "


------ so then if you don't see anything you could jack up front and place an alumnium spacer under the cap so when it's lowered the cap will ride on the spacer. If it stops squeaking.. Bingo.

measure ride height before replacing bushings. Then return to same height after job.

[Ray B]

rnln, I'm going off the reservation here, but have you checked your REAR sway bar mounts? Not unusual for these to to cracked or broken on the g50 cars. Based on your descriptions, it is a possibility.

[rnln]

Ray,
I did, and iit's fine. Thanks for reminding. Oh yes, I have seen a broken one (on another car) when I was looking for this car.

Ronin,
Man.. thanks for the long write up.

On the checking for "center" torsion bar. I have read about it and checked it several times, yes more than once, and found it is centered. But since P car is new to me and I do have the noise there without a source of problem found, I am not sure if my eyes is good enough to check the "center" correctly. Reading this response again, I think I checked it right.

On the rubbing around "3 inches from the rear of the front torsion bar". I also read about it but wonder how can this be checked on the car. It look like the whole a-arm must be off the car, on your hands, in order to check for this if possible, right?

After several times of checking the "center" and "busshing", I told myself that they are fine, base of descriptions in this board but where the noise commnig from? still asking myself. I think once day, I will have to do all of them which I affraid.

Finally I like to try your idea of riding on the spacer to determine if my torsion bar bussing is the issue. Let's see if I got it correct.

Placing a piece of metal spacer there, at the blue arrow, (maybe 2mm or 3mm like a washer) to push the cap upward so that the torsion bar will not put all the weight on the busshing, and/or the torsion will not rub on the inner of the a-arm. If the my sound goes away, the T bar busshing have an issue. If not, go look somewhere else.
Right?

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln


Placing a piece of metal spacer there, at the blue arrow, (

No... that loads the t-bar. Center the t-bar at the cap.



I never did this myself or have ever heard of it done. It's just another one of my bright ideas. I'm loaded with them right down to blowing out both headlights, dim & brights, at night on a black road.

If my car and I knew the inevitable bushing rebuild would have to happen and I wanted to delay the job I'd jack up one side and see if the bar looked centered without any weight on the lower part of the bushing. The upper part of the bushing should be in good shape and allow the centering of the bar. Then I'd measue under the cap. If 1/4" I'd cut two 1/4" strips of alumnium and attach them permanently but easily removable.The cap and soft alumnium shouldn't squeak.

Killing two birds with one stone. Test for silence and delay rebuild if it still squeaks.

[rnln]

ok so place the spacer not outside but inside the cap right? Between the cap and the T-bar?
Thanks.

[rnln]

Reading the thread again to see if I can get anything else in my head, I think I should add a little note.
The creaking noise is only present at:
1- start to move out in the morning, backing down slope to the road, even without touching the steering wheel at all or holding the wheel straight. No matter what I do, that noise will be present. It is worst in the morning.
2- going into the company's property (up the payment), and up the payment into my house in the evening. It seem like whenever the car is "looking upward", either moving up/forward or backing down with car facing upward.
3- on normal straight road surface, it only happen when the wheel turn max.
on normal driving, it is smooth, never can hear anything. On normal 90 degree turn, it won't happen.
Thanks.

[RoninLB]

maybe spray some lube into the sway bar connections?

[rnln]

will try that.
Thanks.

[na2ub]

Ronin, yes I got the upper shaft bearing and bearing seals at http://www.ebatmus.com/ lower shaft bearing at Pelican, and the pinion bearing at NAPA.