An Oil Additive that is worth using - Page 2

GaryR · GaryR's Garage

Ok then, let's see a nice chart for all popular oils! If possible please include M1 Extended service as it's all I can get (in 15W50) for my SC track car.. I believe it has a different formulation but doubt the Zn and P levels are changed.

Thanks!

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 07:15 AM

yup, I have everything - just need to scan it in :-)

Steve@Rennsport · 10-04-2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cnavarro
Steve, 4 oz won't do much IMHO. Here's the math - you need 2/3 oz to raise the Zn and P by 100ppm per quart of oil. IE, if you use castrol syntec 5w50, for example, you need just shy of 23 oz of GM EOS to get you to 1200 ppm of Zn and P (from the 900 it starts with). The amount you should add is really dependent on what oil you start with. It's basically pointless to add it to some oils, because more isn't necessarily better as you already pointed out.

Good point, Charlie!

I was trying to be conservative for all the folks with a cat on their cars that really need this in their oil,...

Oil formulations are a "work in progress" and I'm pleased to see that you are trying to stay current on your listing. When you finish that (for the moment), send me a link and I'll put that on our website.

Chuck Moreland · 10-04-2006, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cnavarro
Steve, 4 oz won't do much IMHO. Here's the math - you need 2/3 oz to raise the Zn and P by 100ppm per quart of oil. IE, if you use castrol syntec 5w50, for example, you need just shy of 23 oz of GM EOS to get you to 1200 ppm of Zn and P (from the 900 it starts with). The amount you should add is really dependent on what oil you start with. It's basically pointless to add it to some oils, because more isn't necessarily better as you already pointed out.

So combining this with your earlier post, does that mean mobil 1 does not benefit from suplementation? You listed mobil 1 at 1200 ppm out of the bottle.

Very good thread and information content!

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 08:42 AM

I'm typing in the results right this minute (scanner is on the fritz) - I hope to have them posted sometime today.

creaturecat · 10-04-2006, 09:45 AM

nice job cnavarro - thanks for sharing.

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 09:50 AM

Results are posted:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

I couldn't get it to format well in my post, so I put it up there along with a pdf with my notes on each sample.

Please let me know if there are any questions that pop up that I can further address in the q&a.

Enjoy!

Dantilla · 10-04-2006, 09:53 AM

Where's Lubemaster?

Steve@Rennsport · 10-04-2006, 10:56 AM

Dantilla:

Lubemaster wrote a good post on ZDDP that I saved locally but I think you'd find that in the PP archives by doing a search for "ZDDP".

randywebb · 10-04-2006, 11:39 AM

This getting pretty interesting...

Here is the ZDDP thread:
EPA on Zn, S and P in Engine Oil

Let's aim for two recommendations:
1 for cars with a cat
and one for me... I mean cars w/o a cat

pwd72s · 10-04-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by randywebb
This getting pretty interesting...

Here is the ZDDP thread:
EPA on Zn, S and P in Engine Oil

Let's aim for two recommendations:
1 for cars with a cat
and one for me... I mean cars w/o a cat

Awaiting news on whether or not I should head to the local GM dealership...

bkreigsr · 10-04-2006, 12:06 PM

nice stuff
is Boron a good thing or bad? I noticed regular Delvac has more than the syn.
Fenwick used it to make fishing rods for a while, so, with that kind of (tensile?) strength, wouldn't it be abrasive?
thanks for great reference material
Bill K

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 12:12 PM

From my observations, boron seems to be used where average oil temperatures are higher - i.e. the harley syn had the highest boron levels, about 6 times that of delvac.

livi · 10-04-2006, 12:43 PM

Interesting link, Charles !

What really got my attention was the claim that changing oil with very short intervals would actually do more harm. I can´t say I really understood the explanation for that, but its interesting. Not least since a lot of people here seem to change the oil very frequently.

David E. Clark · 10-04-2006, 12:54 PM

The Engine Oil Bible and The Not-So-Clever Classic Oil Additives sites have some interesting and thoughtful information about oil and additives. While not specifically addressing ZPS, the first link concludes:

"Think what you will of these. Whatever you call them, they are an addition to the engine which it was not designed to take. Engines are designed to use engine oil, not Teflon®. Make up your own mind - read this report and see what you think. In my opinion (and that doesn't mean I'm right) the majority of these are primarily a placebo to put uneducated minds at rest whilst making a nice profit for the additive manufacturer."

The second link addresses zinc dithiophosphates and adds:

"To illustrate the whole point about additives, consider this. In the manufacture of synthetic oils, once the synthetic polyol ester bases are created, anti-wear additives such as zinc dithiophosphates (essentially combinations of zinc, phosphorous, and sulphour molecules) are added. These combinations are extremely effective as anti-oxidant, anti-wear, anti-corrosion inhibitors. Now look at the contents of some of the after-market additives. Wow! Zinc, phosphorous and sulphour! Imagine that. Those aftermarket additives are actually exactly what your oil manufacturer has put in already.

Consider further that some oil companies actually make a point of telling you not to use aftermarket additives with their oils."

Food for thought?

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David E. Clark
Wow! Zinc, phosphorous and sulphour! Imagine that. Those aftermarket additives are actually exactly what your oil manufacturer has put in already.

Consider further that some oil companies actually make a point of telling you not to use aftermarket additives with their oils."

Food for thought?

The Zinc and Phosphorous, ZDDP, is exactly what we are addressing. Levels of both have been reduced significantly in the last few years to levels below where they were originally intended to be at because of lenthened emissions warranties and more stringent emissions controls. All this discussion is addressing is to ensure that sufficient ZDDP is in the oil going into our cars. Alternatively, choosing an oil with acceptable levels from the start is really the proper way to go.

I concur with the statement that most, if not all additives, are pretty much placebos - the test results pretty much showed that. Basically the only ones that have anything are STP, GM EOS, and Power Service Diesel Oil Extender, and all three are basically carriers of ZDDP almost exclusively.

randywebb · 10-04-2006, 01:29 PM

STP? I always thought it was a concentrated VI improver?

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 01:33 PM

The red bottle (labeled 4 cyl treatment) has more ZDDP and has a viscosity similar to SAE30. The blue bottle has less ZDDP and TONS of VI improvers, which I stay away from.

livi · 10-04-2006, 01:39 PM

Must be extremely tedious and take a long time to figure out exactly what numbers of those substances are better for minimal engine wear. So many independent factors working together to make up for a total wear pattern.

Reminds me of a current debate here in Sweden. Apparently the food served in schools nowadays contain lower levels of vitamin D than before. Less milk for instance. This makes a lot of people draw the conclusion that the kids now are getting too little vitamin D. To my knowledge, no one knows exactly how much of a certain vitamin the growing body needs and it would be almost impossible to find out. Of course when the deficiency symptoms turn up - the levels are too low. But children in Sweden don´t suffer such symptoms - not previously and not now.

Sorry for the detour - but how does one come to the conclusion that xxx ppm of a certain substance is optimal if the measured symptom is long term engine wear ?

cnavarro · 10-04-2006, 01:51 PM

Hard to say. I've seen recommendations of 1000 ppm as a starting point up to 1200-1400 ppm specifically recommended for aircooled engines (including V-twin and other aircooled motorcycles). My two baselines were the levels found in Mobil 1, which is the recommended (and factory) fill from Porsche, which nearly matches the levels I found in a sample taken from a can of Kendall GT-1 from the 70s that someone so graciously had saved and gave to me. I wanted to test Kendall since it was in the day, considered the best oil you could get. Most of the oils I used even before I did my testing met these levels, go figure.