Broken head studs- why not do the minimum?

[munsonbw]

Well, I thought I was extremely fortunate to have removed all of the exhaust nuts without a single broken stud (to put on pre-74 HEs), but it appears lady luck has caught up with me. While I had everything out of the way, it was the perfect time to do a valve adjust. Unfortunately, I found four broken head studs, one on the divers side and three on the pass. I am not college poor, but I am trying to understand why so many people suggest that it will take $3000 to do this job. My car is a 1981 Euro SC 3.0 with 68k miles and runs wonderfully. I did not hear the tell-tale broken stud noise under acceleration.

I have read many posts in the archives, and for every guy that says it can be done for $500 there are ten that say it is $3000+ and it would be foolish not to do it all. Here is my take: 12 steel studs, nuts/washers, complete gasket kit (which has more than the required stuff) totals right at $500. I have no issues doing the work myself. My questions are now:

1) How will I know if the head is damaged and in need of resurfacing?
2) What constitutes the remaining $2500 for this job. labor?
3) I see a common suggestion is a valve job. At 68k am I really due?
4) Any other sage advice?

I only drive the car 3000 miles or so a year, so unless a "while your in there" suggestion is something that would likely fail in 30k miles, I just have a hard time believing it is needed... but, I would like to hear the board's thoughts. All of the studs broke about 1.5" from the nut, so no EDM work should be required.

Thanks,
Ben

[914efi]

I just did this as a min effort, and see no problem with that approach. You risk finding other stuff wrong, but that's life. Mine was (is) a good running engine, but not really worth throwing huge money into. Cleanliness is the biggest challenge since you are taking dirty stuff apart and you must keep the dirt on the outside.

[Walter_Middie]

Ben,

1) How will I know if the head is damaged and in need of resurfacing?

Take a look at the top of the cylinders, the head, and the gasket. If yours have been beating on each other, you will see it.

2) What constitutes the remaining $2500 for this job. labor?

Yes labor - doing it yourself is the only way it makes sense if your budget is anything like mine.

3) I see a common suggestion is a valve job. At 68k am I really due?

At 68k, you may not need a valve job - do you see any smoke during hard deceleration?

4) Any other sage advice?

Double check the CIS for worn gaskets and o-rings while it's out - especially where the injectors plug in. Also take a look at your engine mounts to see if the rubber is in good shape.

[Jeff Higgins]

My 19 year old son Chris is "college poor". We found one broken stud on his 95k mile '79 SC last winter when we were doing a valve adjust / SSI installation. He had no choice but to do the minimum to get it fixed. This was also an opportunity to reseal everything, including the whole CIS system. No regrets; the rest of the motor has a lot of life left in it. It should see him through school, anyway.

[munsonbw]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I will certainly be looking for any worn items that need replacing, but I am trying to stop well short of the edge of the "slippery slope". The car did not smoke that I ever noticed.

Thanks again,
Ben

[munsonbw]

Noah,

I was probably going to bite the bullet and buy the big engine seal kit from Pelican. I know piece-mealing the gasket I need will likely be 90% of the kit cost.

Funny you should mention the 964 cams... I really would like to add them to the list, since I am 99% there anyway I have the 9.8:1 Euro P/Cs and early HEs, what kind of power do you think the 964 cams would get me? I seem to remember people saying 240-ish??? Are resurfaced rockers a requirement for the job? Any risk in shortening the lifespan of the engine? Do I have to modify the CIS or will it adjust?

Sounds like I am walking right up to the slope...

[yelcab1]

Starting with doing the minimum and ending up with talks of cam upgrades ($500?) and rockers/shafts restoration ($25 ea) means you are already on the slippery side of the slippery slope.

I say "rebuild the motor."

[914efi]

Don't even take the rocker shafts out unless they are leaking!

[Porsche_monkey]

I think it's the 'while you're in there' syndrome, it's hard to resist doing a whole bunch of little things that really don't NEED to be done. Like 964 cams.

[Gunter]

Ben:
So far, so good; you'll need Wayne's book on engine rebuild.
The cams most likely have to come out anyway.
A re-grind to 964 will get you a nice kick after 4000 RPM.
Cost? $3-400.-? Additional HP? 15?
The Euro CIS will accommodate a 964 cam.
I wouldn't split the case and I would leave the valves alone with maybe just new valve-seals.
The big question here is what type P/C's you find. Alusil or Nikasil?
If Alusil, disturbing the rings is a gamble.
Replacing the head studs without removing the P/C's is very tough.
IMHO $500.- is very optimistic; the tools and gasket kits alone exceed that budget. You'll need an engine stand with the VW-yoke, Z-block, dial indicator, P9191 cam tool, 12-point Allen for the flywheel bolts and a few other things.

[914efi]

Slide the pistons partially out of the cylinders and remove the snap ring, heat the piston and the pin will come out. This way you don't risk either messing up the rings or finding one that is bad! As noted above, don't take the cams out, the rocker shafts out or anything else that is secondary to the goal of the ultimate cheap fix. Replacing cams in a CIS engine for miniscule usable gain is foolish when you consider all that could go wrong in the process. Part of being cheap means don't create problems that don't currently exist.

[JBO]

You can just replace the studs, but the "problem" is that you have to remove the engine and tear it down to replace the studs, and if you plan to keep the car long term it just makes more sense to do a top end. I went through this a few years ago on a 65k mile SC. And if the clutch has not been replaced in a while, may as well do that while the engine is out. Since you can do it yourself, it might make sense to just do the studs, since you can take it apart again later if need be. I was paying to have it done, and since so much is labor I didn't want to have to go back in there again for a long time.

[munsonbw]

Yeah, I think I was dreaming on the 964 cams. I have a home built Lotus Seven clone with a 2300cc ford motor. Very light and I have not even tried to get an real power out of it. It is to be my Auto-X and track car, so better to just enjoy a nice clean 911 and keep the seven the track whore. I do have Wayne's book, and I have not looked to closely at the tool list. $130 for the stand adapter ring... wow!

Thanks again guys.
Ben

[yelcab1]

Originally posted by munsonbw
Yeah, I think I was dreaming on the 964 cams. I have a home built Lotus Seven clone with a 2300cc ford motor. Very light and I have not even tried to get an real power out of it. It is to be my Auto-X and track car, so better to just enjoy a nice clean 911 and keep the seven the track whore. I do have Wayne's book, and I have not looked to closely at the tool list. $130 for the stand adapter ring... wow!

Thanks again guys.
Ben

Here is the complete list of tools:

1. Engine yolk ($350) unless you can borrow one
2. Camshaft crowfoot, $65
3. Camshaft holding socket $35.
4. 12 point allen socket set $20 from Kragen
5. metric dial gauge $75, with extension
6. Holding tool for gauge, $20
7. Engine top end seal set ~$200
8. 4 studs from Porsche $120
9. Exhaust long allen socket, $20 or make one
10. Rear main seal, $30
11. One case of oil, $50
12. Misc rags, chemical, paint, anything else that breaks.

Your chances of getting under $1000 is slim.