RSR vs IROC

[Larry_Ratcliff]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

If stump-pulling torque is important to you, then you're really in the wrong neighborhood with the air-cooled flat sixes. A 300 hp motor isn't all that wild, compared to a lot of (inexpensive) modern performance cars. The light weight of a 911 makes it pretty quick with 250-300 hp, especially through curves. But if you want to feel straight-line thrust, get a Turbo motor -- it'll fit under the IROC/RSR tail options. And buying an already-built turbo motor will be cost- and time-effective compared to tearing open an air cooled engine to try and get more out of it.

Buying a finished project is the only path that meets all of the benchmarks you've set for this. It's by far the most cost-effective way to go, and even if it takes a year to find the right car, it won't be a year of drifting deadlines and bleeding cash.

Do a search on recent posts with "rattlsnak" in them to see a beautiful green car that fits the bill and has come up for sale a couple of times, now.

I agree with Jack. It is always cheaper to buy the HP torque that you are looking for. Even if that means finding a stock TT 3.6 (around 20 - 25K). However, I also agree that stump pulling torque is not what it takes to get a 2000 -2300 pound car moving. My 74 is 2370 pounds wet (yes on the scales not a guess) and with my 96 3.6 I can cross the 0-60 threshold in under 4 seconds and go as fast as I care to to. I have owned many muscle cars including a Buick GS with a 455 Stage I, 71 corvette with a modified 454, 68 camaro with a 406" 550 hp small block... on and on...

My little 74 will flat kick but over any of those cars. It is a completely different sensation ... It just hooks up and flies, handles well and stops well.

[911 tweaks]

Thanks Larry! What did you do to your 74' to get it to that weight? Are you running a turbo or non turbo 3.6 in the tub?
You are right with your muscle car comparisons! If you are quicker/faster than the muscle cars you site, than your 74' is definatley going like a bat out of h^ll...we all need to know more of how you are doing this...please clue us in with what it took to do this.
Bob

[pieterk]

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks

Thanks Larry! What did you do to your 74' to get it to that weight? ..we all need to know more of how you are doing this...please clue us in with what it took to do this.
Bob

I'm not Larry but I also have a 1974 911 (Euro-spec Carrera), and that weight isn't terribly difficult to achieve in these cars. The process is heavily documented on this site with many different builds, but in short, it usually involves replacement of the stock interior with lightweight carpet kits and racing seats (preceded by removal of sound padding, cushions, seats, etc), lighter muffler, light weight door panels, fiberglass front and rear bumpers, fiberglass decklid and hood, sunroof removal (if you have it), removal of all A/C components, etc. Other losses are harder to come by, but they include plastic windows, fiberglass doors, removal of impact bumper shocks, stripping the undercoating on the tub, having earlier and/or lighter mag motor and transmission cases, no heating plumbing or blower motors, replaced heat exchangers with headers, etc. Adding things like extra oil coolers and plumbing, transmission coolers and plumbing, roll bars, shock tower braces, fire suppression, and other safety items will put some weight back in, but even with those, weights under 2,400 lbs aren't too hard to find. A fair number of cars on this site are substantially less than that.

Regarding Larry's formidable power, I can't exactly comment on a 3.6, but I know it has more torque than my RS+ spec 2.7, and with a shortened 8:31 gearbox, my car is almost scarry fast, even in first gear. I recently reminded myself of this as I've been very absent from all things car related the last few months, but I just took the 911 out this past Saturday for a quick exercise, and I was giggling and a little intimidated by what the damned thing would do once the motor was warm and wound up above 5k. Very head-snapping acceleration. And at freeway speeds, in say a short 3rd gear at 5-6k, you can pretty much just drive away from almost anyone at will. So Larry's extra 40 horses or so over mine (assuming his is a stock 3.6) with extra torque to boot and roughly equal weights makes his reported performance believable.

As ever, light weight + reasonable power = very fast and fun car. Nothing else I've driven compares.

[DW SD]

Matteo-Thanks for the kind words. At under 2200 lbs, with the 3.6 and 275 RWHP and 274 RHTQ my car is pretty quick. I don't have any idea of 0 to 60, but it gets the adrenalin going.

As for tweaks interests, here's an idea:

Many folks have suggested buying someon else's project. Build something 100% yourself, do all of the labor and still end up with a car which still is worth less than the sum of the parts. That is one option. The latter is buying a project as has been pointed out.

Here's a killer one, which is complete, and now has some provenance of which I am aware:

Paul Rodelo is selling his IROC clone based on a 930. It has a freshly rebuilt engine by AASE motors, rebuilt, upgraded suspension (23 + 33mm T-bars, revalved bilsteins) by Steve Alarcon and FG IROC bodywork and stripped interior. It is light and pulls hard with the stock + 930 engine. Well, it was upgraded a bit with 964 cams and some other parts.

I think it weighed 2500 lbs +. Also it just won best of show at German Auto Fest and was featured a month or two ago in Excellence. I think he's asking $45k. It would probably cost 2X to build it.

It also has fresh paint, 17" Lindsey wheels, new tires, B&B cooler, aftermarket sport seats, harnesses, lightweight IROC style exhaust, etc, etc. Pretty sweet. I think Paul kept all of the parts to return it to stock, too.

You could mod the engine for more power as necessary for another 100HP without a lot of work. A few hundred would likely be possible and plenty for a 2500 lb car.

Seek out Paul Rodelo on the board. Paul and his wife want to buy a home in SoCal, so the car is going on the block.

Doug

[911 tweaks]

thank Doug & Pieter for your inputs.

I guess it still comes down to what one wants to spend. Well, one obvious answer/approach is that I dont want to say how much I am willing to spend as I could possibly overspend for a car that is worth a lot less. BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!! And when it comes to Porsche cars, man, I have a tough time taking the emotion out of the decision and determining what is smart and what is stupid to do!

The other side of the coin is that if I spend for parts and build as I go, you all are correct that I will wind up with getting 30-50 cents on the dollar I spent if and when I sell it... THUS THE QUANDRY...

I guess there is a price to this exercise/project just as with anything in life. Decisions , decisions.

However the latter approach of buy and convert as I go, is a fun process that I enjoy doing, and it is the least painful way to spend $20-30k in $100 to $1000 increments VS. somehow coming up with $20-30K all at one time on the spot!!

I think I will continue to buy and accumulate stuff that is in the direction of RSR and when I pull the pin and start assembling, I will sell and buy the final stuff needed then. I really do want to do this project myself as I as way to anial (no jokes) to accept most peoples level of quality of work. HOWEVER, when I see what I think is nice, it costs an arm and a leg to buy...further convincing me to do it myself. DAMN!! It is soo hard to swallow/accept only being able to get 30-50 cents on the dollar is and when it is sold. BUT, I have such a wicked jones for a RSR it is not funny!! I want a sleeper in the worst way!!

I guess it is time to suck it up and get-r-dun before I am too old and miss my window of ability to do it and enjoy it.

Now, how to schedule like Tom Butler did on his clone making, 1-1.5 hrs in the AM everyday to make progress in a reasonable amount of time to complete the project. I guess no more wine at nite as that definatley impaires my ability to get up early in the AM.

Thanks for letting me ramble guys... now I feel better. TIME TO MAKE A SCHEDULE AND PLAN OF WHAT i HAVE AND DONT HAVE FOR PARTS & WHERE TO START ON THE TUB!!
Bob

[carr914]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

An IROC is a RSR built to the specs of the series of that name.

They share the same serial # sequence and most if not all major components

I'm Sorry, but I have to disagree. IROC cars share the serial sequence#s of 1974 EURO Carreras; 911 460 0016, 0025, 0035, 0037, 0040, 0042, 0059, 0075, 0085, 0090, 0100, and 911 460 0116. My Euro Carrera is 911 460 0350. The IROCs were delivered to Penske with Ducktails. The 1974 RS & RSR share the serial sequence of 911 460 9001 to 911 460 9109. Virtually all the IROCs were converted to RSR spec for IMSA racing and most have now been restored back to IROC configuration.

T.C.

[Larry_Ratcliff]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Matteo-Thanks for the kind words. At under 2200 lbs, with the 3.6 and 275 RWHP and 274 RHTQ my car is pretty quick. I don't have any idea of 0 to 60, but it gets the adrenalin going.

As for tweaks interests, here's an idea:

Many folks have suggested buying someon else's project. Build something 100% yourself, do all of the labor and still end up with a car which still is worth less than the sum of the parts. That is one option. The latter is buying a project as has been pointed out.

Here's a killer one, which is complete, and now has some provenance of which I am aware:

Paul Rodelo is selling his IROC clone based on a 930. It has a freshly rebuilt engine by AASE motors, rebuilt, upgraded suspension (23 + 33mm T-bars, revalved bilsteins) by Steve Alarcon and FG IROC bodywork and stripped interior. It is light and pulls hard with the stock + 930 engine. Well, it was upgraded a bit with 964 cams and some other parts.

I think it weighed 2500 lbs +. Also it just won best of show at German Auto Fest and was featured a month or two ago in Excellence. I think he's asking $45k. It would probably cost 2X to build it.

It also has fresh paint, 17" Lindsey wheels, new tires, B&B cooler, aftermarket sport seats, harnesses, lightweight IROC style exhaust, etc, etc. Pretty sweet. I think Paul kept all of the parts to return it to stock, too.

You could mod the engine for more power as necessary for another 100HP without a lot of work. A few hundred would likely be possible and plenty for a 2500 lb car.

Seek out Paul Rodelo on the board. Paul and his wife want to buy a home in SoCal, so the car is going on the block.

Doug

2 or 3 X that to build it. Also, I did not go crazy with weight reductions. Only fiberglass bumpers, light weight battery, light weight starter, 935 suspension components, rear seat delete with perlon carpet and rid of all sound pad. Oh the rear wing is fiberglass too. but the flares, hood and doors are steel.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by carr914

I'm Sorry, but I have to disagree. IROC cars share the serial sequence#s of 1974 EURO Carreras; 911 460 0016, 0025, 0035, 0037, 0040, 0042, 0059, 0075, 0085, 0090, 0100, and 911 460 0116. My Euro Carrera is 911 460 0350. The IROCs were delivered to Penske with Ducktails. The 1974 RS & RSR share the serial sequence of 911 460 9001 to 911 460 9109. Virtually all the IROCs were converted to RSR spec for IMSA racing and most have now been restored back to IROC configuration.

T.C.

By serial # sequence 911.460.****


yes, the IROCS were 911.460.0***
and the RS /RSRs were 911.460.9***