RSR vs IROC

[911 tweaks]

Walko, That would be great if you could check to see if you can get 1 of these books for me. If in fact you do find 1, please let me know what the cost would be. I presume the book is in english as I am unable to read any other language... well printed language that is ;-)
Thanks, Bob

[89911]

I fellow PCA'er here owns a original IROC and has it on diplay on occasions at our Grand Prix.

[911 tweaks]

Great photos!! Have any head-on, rear-on, cockpit and engine photos??
Bob

[89911]

None personally other then whats shown. There looks to be an original halfway down this page:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.flat6.com/images/project_iroc_05t.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flat6.com/projects.shtml&h=56&w=75&sz=3&hl=en&start=64&sig2=60TeGAGKJzIF6VTqaANeqw&um=1&tbnid=0rONZZKGJxXpRM:&tbnh=53&tbnw=71&ei=0pTRRt74Ap7Uerb81aAJ&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1974%2Bporsche%2Biroc%26start%3D63%26 ndsp%3D21%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3D GGLD,GGLD:2004-32,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by Walko

If you are after this book let me know I can still get my hands on it. I know there was about three copies left.

Michael

PM sent. Thanks!

[Jack Olsen]

911 Tweaks -

As someone who's been down a similar road, I'd suggest you decide on very clear goals before you start the project. If you want a street car with the look of an IROC, RSR 3.0 or RSR 2.8, but computer-controlled reliability and some creature comforts, then a 3.6 is a great way to go. Keep in mind, purists won't consider it a 'clone,' even, since it won't have an early motor in it.

Also keep in mind that you're describing something that could be done for as little as 40K or could easily add up to 140K. Your target of 300 hp is worth looking at. A stock Varioram 3.6 might cost you 7-8K and will come with 285 or so hp. To get that figure to 300+ hp could cost you an additional 8K. Is the last 15 hp worth it to you? To some guys, it is.

If you're starting with a stock SC, and you want a longhood body style, keep in mind that you'll be replacing just about everything, and that it's going to be a fairly expensive way to go. If money is an issue, you might want to think about selling the SC and then backdating a 964, or sourcing a cheap early tub (which is getting harder to do) and a Varioram 3.6 and a suspension. For an IROC or RSR 3.0, you'll still be replacing most of the SC panels. For what it's worth, the backdated 964 -- which will have bigger brakes, coil-overs and a much more rigid chassis -- will probably be cheaper.

And if you want to do it for less than 40K? There's really only one way, these days. Sit tight and wait for someone else's 3.6-in-an-early-car project to come up for sale. You can get the whole package for 30-50 cents on the dollar.

[911 tweaks]

Thanks Jack, as you know, you are correct. It still is great hearing/confirming what one "thinks" to be true AND then to have it validated by someone with your experience. Thank you!!

Anyway, is there much gained if one was to add carbs, a more aggressive cam and maybe a different exhaust, to a stk 3.6?? Would it only be for minimal hp, like15-25 hp gained, and need to spend $4k on carbs, $1500 on exhaust, $600 on cams = $6-8K for 15 to 25 hp?? To me that is not worth it at all!

IS THIS STATEMENT ACCURATE, 15-25 HP FOR $6-8K??

To the tub subject...what in your opinion is most economical: a C2 with its coil overs, stiffer body, body needs backdating, it has 3.6 w A/C... OR an early long hood/SC and need 3.6, A/C, fewer body panels but most, needs beefed up suspension... I am too deep in the forest now and I cant see a single tree...HELP

maybe I need to do a spread sheet or can you share what you may of gone through or know of someone with a similar situation and how they noodled it out.

I see what you are saying in your most recent answer, and I believe you. However, that is going to be a needle in a hay stack, especially here on the east coast, no? Thus, any hopefully equal opportunity that may cost more in my "sweat equity" but same or very similar parts cost in the end?

So many options and areas to think of! Thanks for helping me cut through the fog.
Bob

[Bill Verburg]

you will barely be able to get a stock used 3.6 for $6-8k

Jack gave you some good advice

the major decisions are base engine, base trans, base supension and base brakes.

then where do you want to go w/ each of those categories. and what do you want when you are done.

that will determine where best to start. Any 911 from '64 to '94 can be made to look like an IROC or RSR but not all will perform like one(or better)

[911 tweaks]

Bill, I was trying to explain the cost for the additional components to POSSIBLY make the 3.6 deliver 300 hp.
So, would spending the hypothetical $6-8k achieve the 15-25 additional hp? Even if it does, I cant see spending that kind of money for that minimal hp increase.

So, I will try to ask the question another way:

What tub + what engine will develope 300hp(as the RSR did) + what suspension + what other bits = "RSR w/300 hp in appearance and performance" = that is the most economical way to build such a 911?

I am willing to make some concessions, trade-offs, to have the look and performance. Maybe even better "performance" in some aspects. i.e. coil overs probably perform better than original RSR suspension and I could go either way...which either way is more $$ smart.

Bob

[89911]

There is more to it also then just numbers. Torque is what you need for a track car. You can have two engines with similar horse power production and vastly different torque curves. A nice broad torque curve can do wonders for a cars performance compared to a peaky one.

[89911]

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks

..... is the most economical way to build such a 911?


Bob

This also needs some thought. I would seriously consider buying someone else's project.

[911 tweaks]

thanks Jack, Bill, Boba and all others.

I guess I need to continue my research, liking refinement and all the rest.

It is great that their are so many options and directions to achieve the same end result.

HOWEVER, I truley thought that my above back and forths with everyone would of resulted in my car objective having been defined.

Maybe I need to re asses this whole process as I already have A LOT OF $$ tied up in parts with "0" to show so far...other than lots of parts.

I will read the above books and see if this is worth it after all...

Thanks again all.
Bob

[skipdup]

Bob- What about taking a 930 (or '91-'94 Turbo) and making an IROC replica?

You'd already have the fenders, brakes, target hp rating, etc...

Just thinking out loud...

- Skip

[911 tweaks]

Skip, that is a great idea, but wont the price of a turbo roller be steep if for no other reason that it is a turbo body?
Then to possibly sell the turbo motor and get or build a 3.0RSR or put in a stock 3.6...sounds like a great idea...I have no clue what those #'s would work out for cost. I you can inform me I am all ears...

Presently, having just spoken w/ Keith Walters @ Zuffenhaus, I am leaning twd finding an 89-94 c2 964 coupe and backdate the bodywork. Keep the stk 3.6. If after it is complete the performance is less than desired, I can always add PMO's, exhaust, maybe some cam work... I am led to believe the power addition can be 40-60 hp and make the engine then look like an early car w/carbs.

I think an extensive spread sheet is in order w/ all items needed being factored in.

When I am done, I will post for all others to learn read and we all can then maybe have a more specific discussion (take the emotion out of the subject I have always said makes it easier to noodle it out)
Bob

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks

Skip, that is a great idea, but wont the price of a turbo roller be steep if for no other reason that it is a turbo body?
Then to possibly sell the turbo motor and get or build a 3.0RSR or put in a stock 3.6...sounds like a great idea...I have no clue what those #'s would work out for cost. I you can inform me I am all ears...
...

Actually, I was thinking you could buy a 930, put on IROC front & rear bumpers, remove rocker covers, add an IROC tail, put some proper sized wheels on and call it a day.

Depending on the year you chose, the turbo motor would already make your target of 300hp, or more - stock. Why replace it? Unless you don't want a turbo. I know a lot of guys prefer N/A motors - for some strange reason.

I guess you'd also have to do the suspension and interior (race seats, roll bar, etc). But, that'd happen with any car you start with, if you plan on track work.

I was just thinking a wide body (9&11 inch fenders) with 300hp sounds an awful lot like a 930.

If you started with an '89 or later, you'd get a 5-speed transmission.

I believe '91 and earlier would also give you non-torsion bar suspension, which might be preferable??? as well as the 5-speed. But, someone with more knowledge of the later turbo's would have to help with this, as my knowledge is limited.

Just throwing out ideas.

- Skip

[Bill Verburg]

I like the idea of starting w/ a 964 base. You have most of the basics for a really strong street car.

You also have lots of flexibility as far as engines, trans and suspension goes. A 6 speed, Cup suspension or brakes bolt right in.

[Bill Verburg]

Again Matteo's beautiful blue car is an example of an updated IROC clone done right. He could have saved some grief and expense by starting w/ the 964 tub.

[911 tweaks]

now we are cooking guys!

Can you add to your previous great info regarding 964 tubs??...I know zip about 964s other than that they continued the air cooled 911, 3.6L engine, later yrs have better? varioram intake, BAnderson stated they have over 60% new parts vs. 84-89 911 generation. That is the extent to what I know.

Is there a ton of sh^t that will need to be removed from the 964 that the factory added to possibly make them more comfortable for intended era buyers??

Any one know what the tub weight of a 964 stripped vs. an SC tub stripped?? I believe Keith posted the weight of his zuffenhaus c2 to RSR but I cant find it and I cant recall what weight info he actually posted.

Anyway, I can see the ball starting to take shape so it can begin its roll! (I am so stupid with the poetic clichets crap... bear with me as maybe I am a legend in my own mind... ;-) ha ha)

Bob

[nostatic]

What do you want to do with the car? Track it? Or just have it look fast on the street?

I think 964 is the way to go, but you don't want a roller, you want the whole car (maybe one with accident damage). Then backdate the parts you want, but the guts (engine, ac, abs, etc) are all there.

[911 tweaks]

I AM LOVIN' IT ! Great idea nostatic. Now to find a great 964 that someone had all of their fenders beat in, some broken glass, f & r lid wrinkled, BUT the chassis is straight and the engine runs and has all important stuff there...then I will be all set.

Whats one of those going to cost? Where can this condition car be had AND looked at BEFORE I fork over the $$ so not to buy a POS??