Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

It will not be an issue. Remember, the ZDDP levels found in DT40 are right in line with what oils had even as late as when the Boxster and 996 were released. Wasn't an issue then or in the past.

I did contact Driven about this and suggested their website should be updated to say this instead:

Driven DT oils do not meet ILSAC GF-6A, GF-6B, and API SP standards and is not recommended for vehicles with particulate filters or where emission system or LSPI protection is required; Driven DI oils are recommended for these applications.

And more to the point. IMHO. Many of the newer formulations are not to improve lubrication and wear characteristics but to allow engine manufacturers to provide a 100,000+ mile emissions warranty without risking recalls or warranty claims.

To my way of thinking, many of these changes have reduced to safety margins for lubrication and wear protection (which are are not warranted by the car makers to the extent emissions control systems are ).

[Qtrfoil]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

However, the catalytic converter statement was incorrectly added to the DT oils.

Leave it to the government to f*** things up.

Yes. Clearly this is the government's fault.

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I never recommend the DT oils for race use. If you are going to the track, a race oil should be used such as Driven XP9, which would be used in place of the DT40.

And with regards to his blog, it might have added info, but there tons of out of date info this is piled on to.

At this point, any oil you can purchase at your local auto parts store isn't suitable for any of our cars.

Sorry, you're right. I am new to this brand and misquoted what I was recommended. The machinist/builder recommended XP6. I've written to Joe Gibbs' tech dept asking for their view on which one to use based on engine details / clearances, race fuel, oil temps, dry sump and being turbocharged.
Plus we don't do endurance events. Generally Time Attack format.

What confuses me somewhat is that the clearances are quite tight which would call for a lighter visc oil than I've used in the past. But the company says to go up 2 levels of visc for E85 racefuel and forced induction. If I go off their chart for Alu block and steel rod with operating temps of 160-220f then it points to an oil with a viscosity that scares the living daylights out of me. Luckily they say to bump up two grades but coming from using a 25w/60 or straight 60 racing oil in the past it looks a little concerning. I think taking all those factors into consideration, it's pointing towards their 20w/50 XP6.

Thanks for any consideration/expert opinion Charles.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Sorry, you're right. I am new to this brand and misquoted what I was recommended. The machinist/builder recommended XP6. I've written to Joe Gibbs' tech dept asking for their view on which one to use based on engine details / clearances, race fuel, oil temps, dry sump and being turbocharged.
Plus we don't do endurance events. Generally Time Attack format.

What confuses me somewhat is that the clearances are quite tight which would call for a lighter visc oil than I've used in the past. But the company says to go up 2 levels of visc for E85 racefuel and forced induction. If I go off their chart for Alu block and steel rod with operating temps of 160-220f then it points to an oil with a viscosity that scares the living daylights out of me. Luckily they say to bump up two grades but coming from using a 25w/60 or straight 60 racing oil in the past it looks a little concerning. I think taking all those factors into consideration, it's pointing towards their 20w/50 XP6.

Thanks for any consideration/expert opinion Charles.

I would go with whatever the engine builder recommends.

For an aircooled engine, we recommend Driven DT50 for the street and XP6 for the track, so that lines up with what your engine builder said.

Driven's chart doesn't take into consideration that an aircooled engine needs thicker oil viscosities than watercooled ones.

[PeteKz]

333pg333: I'll save you the trouble. They recommend the DT50 for air cooled engines. It even says so right on the label. Rationale is that air cooled engines run hotter becuase they don't have the temp control of liquid cooling, so run a thicker oil. However, in that discussion, I specifically asked about the DT40, because I had recently rebuilt my engine and knew I had tight bearing clearances, .002 on rods and mains. Their catalog recommends oils based on several factors, including bearing clearances. They agreed that I could use the DT 40 instead.

I ordered the DT50 this time, but I have plenty of oil pressure, so next time I will go with DT40. Oil FLOW is what cools bearings and other parts of the engine, so as a general rule, you should run the thinnest oil that builds sufficient oil pressure without any cam/follower wear.

Charles, FYI on the response I got from Driven about both DT50 and DT40.

[333pg333]

Thanks Gents. My engine is a watercooled i4 968 race motor. At the last dyno it made 618whp @ 16psi however it soon after suffered catastrophic failure from the block cracking due to the serts the then US builder used. We've gone down a different path with this engine. Luckily the crank, rods, pistons, cams were all reusable. However the new builder hasn't given us the exact oil visc to use. Rather given us the chart and the build details. It narrows the choices down but not the final answer. Hopefully I'll hear back from Driven's Tech dept. I shall fwd their recommendations to this thread.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

333pg333: I'll save you the trouble. They recommend the DT50 for air cooled engines. It e3ven sys so right on the label. Rationale is that air cooled engines run hotter becuase they don't have the temp control of liquid cooling, so run a thicker oil. However, in that discussion, I specifically asked about the DT40, because I had recently rebuilt my engine and knew I had tight bearing clearances, .002 on rods and mains. Their catalog recommends oils based on several factors, including bearing clearances. They agreed that I could use the DT 40 instead.

I ordered the DT50 this time, but I have plenty of oil pressure, so next time I will go with DT40. Oil FLOW is what cools bearings and other parts of the engine, so as a general rule, you should run the thinnest oil that builds sufficient oil pressure without any cam/follower wear.

Charles, FYI on the response I got from Driven about both DT50 and DT40.

What I was taught years ago was that for the street, if ambient air temps are below 80F, you can use an Xw40 as long as you have sufficient oil pressure and your oil temperatures reasonable, so DT40 would be a suitable option for milder climates for sure.

[333pg333]

fwiw...they (Gibbs/Driven) came back and suggested GP-1 15w/40. I replied asking why not XP6? Still waiting on response.

[REVerend]

After reading a bunch of this thread it seems like there are a few 99% solutions but I’m not sure the context where they might be really required. I get it that a 99% solution would perhaps be warranted on some cars. Where would just getting a few jugs of Mobil 1 fall in the scheme of things for a decent condition semi daily driver?

The previous owner of my car (‘83 SC) was using Mobil 1 and, until reading this thread, was inclined to just do the same.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

fwiw...they (Gibbs/Driven) came back and suggested GP-1 15w/40. I replied asking why not XP6? Still waiting on response.

I'll email Driven's Tribologist and bring this up.

Regardless of what they emailed, I'd stick with the oil and viscosity recommended by your engine builder.

My recommendations for both aircooled and watercooled Porsche engines can be downloaded here:

https://lnengineering.com/education/technical-library/free-download-engine-oil-quick-reference.html

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I'll email Driven's Tribologist and bring this up.

Regardless of what they emailed, I'd stick with the oil and viscosity recommended by your engine builder.

My recommendations for both aircooled and watercooled Porsche engines can be downloaded here:

https://lnengineering.com/education/technical-library/free-download-engine-oil-quick-reference.html

This was his reply:

"Patrick,

I chose the GP-1 15W-40 for a couple of reasons. The 15W-40 is a better fit for your main bearing clearance, your front and rear bearings were a bit tighter than the rest, but I would recommend going to the heavy side in line with the center mains.

I did not consider the XP for your application because the XP has very little detergent and virtually no corrosion protection package. XPs are formulated for applications that are disassembled and inspected after every event.

Thanks,
Dean"

So I'm glad he actually looked at the data sheet I sent him and made a thoughtful decision. What do you think of this Charles?

[winders]

My race engine went over 70 hours with Driven XP6. There was no sign of corrosion in the engine and is was quite clean....

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by winders

My race engine went over 70 hours with Driven XP6. There was no sign of corrosion in the engine and is was quite clean....

Thanks for that Scott. What motor?

[winders]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Thanks for that Scott. What motor?

A high compression 3.6L 964-based air-cooled engine. I run leaded race fuel in it.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

This was his reply:

"Patrick,

I chose the GP-1 15W-40 for a couple of reasons. The 15W-40 is a better fit for your main bearing clearance, your front and rear bearings were a bit tighter than the rest, but I would recommend going to the heavy side in line with the center mains.

I did not consider the XP for your application because the XP has very little detergent and virtually no corrosion protection package. XPs are formulated for applications that are disassembled and inspected after every event.

Thanks,
Dean"

So I'm glad he actually looked at the data sheet I sent him and made a thoughtful decision. What do you think of this Charles?

XP oils are the only oils I recommend for race engines and for any engine that will see track use. Of course, you have to change the oil after every event since race oils don't have the detergents, dispersants, and corrosion inhibitors that street oils have.

I will again state that you should go with your engine builders recommendation of XP6 if that is what he is recommending.

If you are insistent on running a 40wt, use XP9 over GP-1. I would advise doing used oil analysis though and actually compare how each oil performs in your engine for how it is being used.

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

XP oils are the only oils I recommend for race engines and for any engine that will see track use. Of course, you have to change the oil after every event since race oils don't have the detergents, dispersants, and corrosion inhibitors that street oils have.

I will again state that you should go with your engine builders recommendation of XP6 if that is what he is recommending.

If you are insistent on running a 40wt, use XP9 over GP-1. I would advise doing used oil analysis though and actually compare how each oil performs in your engine for how it is being used.

I have no insistence on running a 40W nor the GP-1. Just reporting back what their own people said and it would seem he actually looked at the engine's spec sheet which is more than I believed with his first response.

I discussed this with the builder again and we've settled on the XP6. It will either be the 15w/40 or 20w/50. I might even keep both on hand for the dyno. If the 40 shows overly high pressure drop when coming off load then we would switch to the higher viscosity.

I appreciate your input Charles. I took a look on your site. Interesting link to the break in procedure by that bike engine builder.

[midnight911]

Is VR-1 on sale somewhere?

[HarryD]

ED Sully posted this elsewhere and I think it has has good info:

Originally Posted by E Sully

I've been following Lake Speed Jr. for awhile now. First off, he does own a Porsche(Boxster). His videos have completely changed the oils I choose for all my cars, not just the 911.
Just a quick video for air cooled 911's https://youtu.be/W48nygk1mlc?si=QyowryC2KRaMIjfz
He is a certified lubrication specialist. He worked for Joe Gibbs Driven motor oils, and now VP of Sales and Marketing for Total Seal piston rings.
Lake Speed Jr's. most recent videos: https://www.youtube.com/@themotoroilgeek/videos
His father raced NASCAR, while Jr. worked on new oils and additive packages. https://www.youtube.com/@lakespeedjr.304/playlists
His insight is amazing as he discusses what base oil and additive packages are in various oils. His best advice is all the aftermarket additives can be basically useless to downright dangerous. Buy the right oil for your car, add nothing else. On the flip side, fuel injector cleaners can are important, and the good ones share one basic component.
Earlier in year he gave session for PCA https://youtu.be/CvkK-dShtM0?si=T7CVTlqdEFHustFr

[pmax]

latest VR1 spec sheets....







That "expiration date" must be some kind of inside joke being played by these oil companies on the consumer.

[callard]

Some millions of years in the earth becoming oil must be drained and discarded from your sump within a year...