Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[kilodawg]

You can find the info that MichaelN quotes if you go to the Mobil 1 site and do a search on ZDDP. It's there just as he states...

[GothingNC]

Here is the link from Mobil 1

https://mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Levels_15W50_Mobil_1_Products.aspx

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by kilodawg

You can find the info that MichaelN quotes if you go to the Mobil 1 site and do a search on ZDDP. It's there just as he states...

Please provide the link as I am not clever enough to find it.

I will point out that certian documents provided by a manufacturer have more "weight" (i.e. are vetted as accurate) than others. Product data sheets are typically used to present highly vetted data and the omission of Zn and P data is suspicious after all, it it is in the product, why not announce it proudly.

Also, if I am not mistaken the SM rules allow some weights of SM oil to be at or above the 1000 ppm (1%) level. However, being allowed to do it and actually doing it are two separate topics.

ZDDP is an expensive additive, if they can cheapen the product by not using as much, there is a very strong temptation to do so. Once agian, since it is not published in the Tech data sheet, they have no duty to maintain any more than the minimum required by API.

Like I have said before, Mobil may have a fine product and they may have the levels I need at this time, but they are not willing to be forcoming on what levels they plan to maintain in the future. Add to this that, in the past, they lowered the levels with nary a word.

Not very trustworthy in my book.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by GothingNC

Here is the link from Mobil 1

https://mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Levels_15W50_Mobil_1_Products.aspx

OK, but this is marketing pap to soothe the masses. Show me the tech data sheet

[alniki]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

The SM rules do NOT apply to 15w50, 20w50 oils. Many of the ones that are ok are actually SM.

Thanks! That's a good news as I only use 15W50 or 10W60 for my 3.2.

[Hoghead]

Here is a list of M-1 ZDDP and phosphorous levels for all their common oils

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Note that Prorsche and flat tappet applications are specifically noted.
I run Turbo Diesel Pickup Oil (the old Delvac) in everything I own as it is the most readily available where I live, and keeps it simple.

Bike oil looks interesting but not available here in Thailand

[sig_a]

EXXON/Mobil 1 has an 800 number. Call them and ask the direct question.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by sig_a

EXXON/Mobil 1 has an 800 number. Call them and ask the direct question.

You can do that but you'll speak to marketing people.

Further, they will not reveal anything proprietary besides assurances to buy their product. Remember who signs their paychecks.

[Jim Garfield]

Although the chart does flat out state that the 15w50 has 1200ppm phosphorus and 1300 ppm zinc, and is for racing and flat tappet application.

On another note. I've been using the Brad Penn 20w50 racing oil, does this have a detergent package or does BP expect that you will change oil more frequently as in a racing engine situation?

[db_cooper]

I will add this to the thread that will not die. Below is a cut and paste from bobistheoilguy.com.

It looks like the John Deere Tractor oil (plus 50) has a big add package, 1700+ zinc and 1400+ phosphorus plus some moly for good measure. This fellow runs it in a boat. The oil looks very suitable for our air cooled engines. A plus would be, we can get this oil at any John Deere store.

Any thoughts?


i know we usually go over automotive uoa's here, but i wanted to throw this one into the mix, to show why i use john deere plus 50 motor oil.
the engine is a john deere marine 6076 (466) with 9798 hrs. engine is either run at wot or idle (lots of idle time, probably 30-40%) i have samples dating back to '92 on this particular engine, i'm only going to post most recent.
sample has 254 hrs., i generally run this oil to 350 hrs., but boat is layed-up until mid-april and i always put her to bed with fresh fluids
oil; john deere plus 50 15w-40
oilscan; through deere
sample date; 12/5/09
make-up oil; 10 qts (due to extensive ideling, hasn't changed since new)



iron................28
chromium............ 1
nickel.............. 1
aluminum............ 2
lead................ 1
copper.............. 1
tin.................<1
silver.............<.1
titanium............<1
silicon............. 4
boron..............133
sodium.............. 5
potassium..........<10
moly...............139
phosphorous.......1410
zinc..............1723
calcium...........4102
barium.............<10
magnesium...........15
antimony...........<30
vanadium............<1
fuel %vol...........<1
t/s %vol...........0.5
water %vol.........<.1
vis cs 100`c....... 15

oilscan doesn't offer tbn/tan to my knowledge, but this engine has always returned stellar uoa's

[GaryR]

Is it this - http://www.deere.com/en_AU/parts_service/oil_lube/index2.html
I'm curious about detergents, anti foam, viscosity modifiers, etc. Is it a dino, syn, or semi-syn?

[tchanson]

Originally Posted by Jim Garfield

Although the chart does flat out state that the (Mobil 1) 15w50 has 1200ppm phosphorus and 1300 ppm zinc, and is for racing and flat tappet application.

Exactly. It either does or it doesn't. As I read the chart, it clearly states the acceptable current M1 phosphorus and zinc levels as Jim listed above.

How is that "marketing"?


So, Charles, can I safely go back to regular M1 15W50 instead of the M1 VTwin 20W50 I am currently using?





Tim

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by GaryR

Is it this - TORQ-GARD&#174 Plus-50&#153 SAE 15W-40 Supreme Engine Oil
I'm curious about detergents, anti foam, viscosity modifiers, etc. Is it a dino, syn, or semi-syn?

here is the USA link
Oil and Lubricants : Plus-50 II 15W-40 Engine Oil

[333pg333]

I use the owner's manual to show people who want to use 0w/30 or 5w/40 synth oils and it clearly shows mineral oil of 20w/50 that goes down to -10c and over 40c. My thinking is that I am happy to sacrifice some fuel economy in contrast to having a thick enough oil to increase physical protection. Especially when the car gets hot from fast driving, high traffic, or the track. To add to that we of course recommend oils with high ZDDP content. Now I know this is a simplified approach in view of what has been written here and elsewhere, but we have seen more wear and engine expiration from people using eg M1 5w/40 from a certain era vs cars with very little or even no wear that have always had a steady diet of eg V1.

I have one person who comes back to me and suggests that I've got it wrong. The owner's manual is merely a temp guide as it states elsewhere:
"Use only hydrocrack oils of quality grade API SG (US) or CCMC G4 or G5 (EU)"

Are we talking about the same thing or am I missing something?

Also it is our opinion based on information from oil co. reps that there is no pure 100% fully synthetic oil used in normal vehicles. That they all come from some base stock of mineral oil. Is this an example of marketing again? Is there really a fully 'made in the test tube' synth product out there such as this would have you believe?

http://tiny.cc/CyLG3

http://tiny.cc/NsLpS

[333pg333]

ps this is supposedly a quote from a 951 owners handbook. I have heard that Porsche USA pushed M1 more than some other countries and it could also be that the US owners manual reflected this. I'm not sure of that of course.

"Low viscosity oils reduce friction in the engine. Porsche approves only low-viscosity oils which are structurally so stable that they can be used in Porsche engines both as summer and winter oils (see chart of areas of application for oils of different viscositiy) These conditions are currently fulfilled by synthetic or hydrocrack low-viscosity oils."
"Engine oil is not only a lubricant, but also serves to keep the engine clean, to neutralize the dirt which penetrates into the engine through combustion and to protect the engine against corrosion.To perform these functions, the oil is provided with addatives which have been specially developed for these functions. So-called mineral oils are produced directly from crude oil. The oils can be further refined (hydrocrack oils) or totally converted through a number of chemical processes (synthetic oils) These oils are structurally more efficient and require fewer additives than simple mineral oils.
The efficiency of an oil is expressed, for example, by the API classifications which are divided in to categories "S" and "C". The degrees of quality are expressed by the final letters in alphabetical order: the requirements for Porsche engines are API class SE/CC to SF/CD."

[68redlines73]

Hydrocrack is a slang term for hydroprocessing, the first part of a process used for making Group II or III base oils...vs. solvent-refined Group I base oils...

Chevron Lubricants - Base Oils - Isodewaxing

Here is a primer on what defines the various groups of base oils...

Chevron Lubricants - Base Oils - Meeting GF-4 Group I vs. Group II

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

I use the owner's manual to show people who want to use 0w/30 or 5w/40 synth oils and it clearly shows mineral oil of 20w/50 that goes down to -10c and over 40c. My thinking is that I am happy to sacrifice some fuel economy in contrast to having a thick enough oil to increase physical protection. Especially when the car gets hot from fast driving, high traffic, or the track. To add to that we of course recommend oils with high ZDDP content. Now I know this is a simplified approach in view of what has been written here and elsewhere, but we have seen more wear and engine expiration from people using eg M1 5w/40 from a certain era vs cars with very little or even no wear that have always had a steady diet of eg V1.

IMHO your "simplified appraoch" is spot on. With the current API Standards, some oils are better than others.

I have one person who comes back to me and suggests that I've got it wrong. The owner's manual is merely a temp guide as it states elsewhere:
"Use only hydrocrack oils of quality grade API SG (US) or CCMC G4 or G5 (EU)"

Are we talking about the same thing or am I missing something?

THe answer may be that when the manual was printed API SG oil was the best. Historically, subsequent API grades met or exceed the desirable properties of the earlier oils. This march of improvement stopped withthe API SM grades.

Also it is our opinion based on information from oil co. reps that there is no pure 100% fully synthetic oil used in normal vehicles. That they all come from some base stock of mineral oil. Is this an example of marketing again? Is there really a fully 'made in the test tube' synth product out there such as this would have you believe?

Motul 300V Competition 15W-50 Racing lubricant for racing cars

http://tiny.cc/NsLpS

I will let others speak to this but as the synthetic oil story unfolded, the definition of syththtic oil have shifted from solely synthetic oils to the inclusion of highly refined petroleum products.

[Roc Doc]

Originally Posted by HarryD

I will let others speak to this but as the synthetic oil story unfolded, the definition of syththtic oil have shifted from solely synthetic oils to the inclusion of highly refined petroleum products.

Nearly 25 years ago, I worked in a "tuner" shop, (we sold wheels and tires mostly), and that was when I was first introduced to Amsoil. It was their contention at that time, that their product was fully synthetic, and that Mobil 1 was from petroleum stock. I don't know if that has changed over the years or not.

I've used Redline gear lube and ATF with good results as well.

BTW, I have the Amsoil V-twin 20=50 in my 3.2 now, and thankfully I haven't seen any leaks.

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by Roc Doc

It was their contention at that time, that their product was fully synthetic, and that Mobil 1 was from petroleum stock. I don't know if that has changed over the years or not.

I don't know about 25 years ago, but this is not true today. Amsoil uses a lot of Mobil PAO (group IV) as the base stock for their extedned drain and high performance oils. It is the additive package that is their claim to fame.

On a somewhat related note I finally got a few clips of a crude experiment I did years ago on the web. It is not meant to be all encompassing, just of interest. The idea is to show cold (10-12F as acheived in my home freezer) flow properties 20W50 Dino vs 20W50 synthetic for all those who use 20W50 all year long.

YouTube - 20w50 Flow 10F.AVI

YouTube - Amsoil 12F Flow.AVI

Don

[Roc Doc]

My car lives in the garage, so it rarely sees temps below 40 degrees, but my truck is parked in the driveway, and I can really tell the difference in the winter. That 444 cubic inch/17:1 compression engine takes some serious juice to turn over when it's cold. I should put synthetic in it during the winter months, but a $125 oil change is pretty painful.