951 Fuchs on Front Question

[arbita1]

I know there are a couple of guys who run 8" 951 Fuchs on the front. I'm just wondering if anything special (ie. Roll the fenders) is necessary to make them fit.

[89911]

I've found that rolling the fenders and having adequate negtive camber a must for them to fit. Having a stiffer torsion bars and sway bars also aid in keeping the wheel travel minimal, but you still have to allow for them to clear.

[KTL]

Originally Posted by 89911

I've found that rolling the fenders and having adequate negtive camber a must for them to fit. Having a stiffer torsion bars and sway bars also aid in keeping the wheel travel minimal, but you still have to allow for them to clear.

+1 what Mike said. If you choose to run a 951 16x7 or 16x8, or a 911 16x7 up front with a 225/50 tire, you must increase negative camber and roll the fender lips. There's no question about that.

Contrary to popular belief, the +23mm offset of these wheels is not optimum. It just so happens that with a little work you can get the +23 wheels to fit good enough. I speak from experience on my car running two different kinds of wheels with two different offsets. Two seasons ago I ran a +28mm 16x8 BBS wheel shod with a 225/50 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, -1 deg of camber and shaved fender lips. No clearance problems.

This year I ran the same wheel, but with a 5mm wheel bearing spacer (needed because of my brake setup), which theoretically created a wheel with a net +23mm o/s just like the 951 16x8. The tire was a 225/50 Kumho Victoracer which is slightly wider than a Michelin. I had very minor rubbing of the tire on the apex of the fender during hard cornering on the track. This occurred if I adjusted my camber truss strut brace too stiff- slightly spreading the strut towers and not allowing them to flex under cornering loads. I backed off the supports on the camber truss and the rubbing went away.

My last event this year I ran a narrower 911 16x7 +23mm Fuchs wheel with a 225/50 tire and had rubbing with the camber truss set loose, but max camber on the strut mounts (actual neg. camber measurement unknown). The tire brand was a different Hankook RSS Z211 R compound which I believe is a bit narrower than the Victoracer. I had the same clearance problem I experienced before, but slightly more rubbing- minor tire residue on the apex of the fender lip. Remember i'm running a 5mm wheel bearing spacer, so the effective offset of the wheel is theoretically now +18mm.

I understand that my "testing" has introduced a lot of variables which flaw my results- different wheels & brand of wheel, use of the camber truss in different states of loading, different brands of tires. Nonetheless, there's proof that a higher offset wheel is more desirable. My point is that an offset around +30mm is desirable for a 8 in. wheel on the front. This is of course going to vary from wheel to wheel (in whatever diameter, not just 16 in. wheels) since all 8 in. wheels are not necessarily the same width. Problem is, if you go much beyond +30mm then you start having problems with the inboard sidewall contacting the strut/shock dust cover tube. Easy solution for that is to replace the metal tube with a rubber bellows/accordion like offroad shocks use. As you can see, the 8 is about the widest wheel you can go with on the front of a narrow body 911. And the offset is critical- there's not much room to play.


Hope the above rambling is somewhat helpful.

[Bill Verburg]

here are wheels that work. o/s or ET
will be the same for 15,16,, 17 or 18" wheels.

I agree w/ Kevin 8 front ET23.3 - 31 have worked in front but the closer to the extremes the more issues. I use 8x17 ET 25 on my own car. 235/45 tires.

[equality72521]

I have 911 8" (911.361.020.45) on the front with no problems using about a 3/4" spacer.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by equality72521

I have 911 8" (911.361.020.45) on the front with no problems using about a 3/4" spacer.

Unfortunately a 930 does not have the same fenders as an SC or Carrera

[gumba]

I used a 912 hub which is a 1/2" narrower than a 911. I went with longer studs and played with spacers to center the wheel. The front fenders were rolled and camber was 1.5. The upper shock covers were removed. I used 225's and 245's Hoosiers on the 951 8x16's. This was on our '73 targa. The 951 8x16's have the 5 3/8" backspacing (like the 9's.). The 7" 951's have the same backspacing as the 911's. The 951 7 & 8's have a different rear web design for better caliper clearence.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Unfortunately a 930 does not have the same fenders as an SC or Carrera

Good point.

[arbita1]

I think you guys just convinced me to stick with the 7"'s in front.

[450knotOffice]

PatrickB has 951 8's on the front of his Carrera and they are a tight fit but he has had zero problems. He did have to increase camber to at least -1 degree (maybe more), but that's not a real problem as far as I am concerned. Personally, I run about -1.8 degrees on my own '84 and haven't noticed a major increase in wear on the inside edge of the tires (a little, yes).

Here's Patrick's car:


Before you give up on this idea, you should PM Patrick.

[JeremyD]

I run 951 fronts 8" and 9" rears - I had to add about a degree of camber and could not quite get to euro height - and slightly rolled the lips. Worth it to me

[JeremyD]

BTW - these pictures are with 225/50/16's - I just changed to 225/45/16 hankooks and got alot more room and could probably take my car down to euro (although my driveway is steeper these days)

[PatrickB]

That's what I run Jeremy. An inch less in overall diameter allows me to run at 24.25" in the front.
Rolled fenders & almost a -2* in the front with no rubbing.

Matt~ are you already running 9's in the rear? If you need a source, and you've made up your mind on Fuch's, Jason Cullen is your man!!

The other question is... Are these just for street? If so, you might consider the new 17" Rota's(way less$$). If you are doing DE's or Auto X, you might consider 17" Kodiak's (Jeff Alton on the Board) or maybe CCW's. The 17" wheels will give you FAR greater choices when it comes to picking out tires! + the wheels will cost about the same...

Don't get me wrong, as I love my Fuch's... However, tire choices are limited for the type of driving I do. I Do 1 DE a month, and then some spirited street driving too. No longer my daily driver, so I wanted a very aggressive street tire that would hold up to track abuse... I love my Hankook RS212's, but who knows how much longer they will make them in my size (225/45&245/45)??

[89911]

If you have the choice, I would still go with the 8 up front. Good point about the tire sidewall height also. If you drop down to the 45 instead of the 50, the clearance issue is minimal up front. Along with that, the sidewall height just looks better and matches the height in the back with a 245/45.

[arbita1]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

Matt~ are you already running 9's in the rear? If you need a source, and you've made up your mind on Fuch's, Jason Cullen is your man!!

The other question is... Are these just for street? If so, you might consider the new 17" Rota's(way less$$). If you are doing DE's or Auto X, you might consider 17" Kodiak's (Jeff Alton on the Board) or maybe CCW's. The 17" wheels will give you FAR greater choices when it comes to picking out tires! + the wheels will cost about the same...

Don't get me wrong, as I love my Fuch's... However, tire choices are limited for the type of driving I do. I Do 1 DE a month, and then some spirited street driving too. No longer my daily driver, so I wanted a very aggressive street tire that would hold up to track abuse... I love my Hankook RS212's, but who knows how much longer they will make them in my size (225/45&245/45)??

Patrick, Thanks for your PM.

I already have the 9's in the rear. This would be for auto-x running Kumho Victoracers (225/245). They only make a 225/50 so the lower profile would not be an option. I checked tire rack and the only competition tire that comes in that size is the Yokohama Avans. I wasn't planning on getting those.

I could possibly look into 17's, but I'd really prefer to stick with the Fuchs.

I'm very confused at this point.

[PatrickB]

I'd go for the 8's in front then. No big deal with the 225/50's in the front. Plenty of guys run with those, you just can't go stupid low ride height like I do! You might consider rolling the fender lips, and throwing as much neg camber in as possible. I think the Victo's run better with neg camber anyway! The extra inch width in that front wheel makes a big difference...

[Jeff Alton]

With an 8 inch front wheel you would ideally like a +25-+32mm offset minimize or eliminate clearance issues. With the higher offset you run the risk of the tire rubbing the inner fender wall at full lock, but that beats rubbing on the fender lip. Somewhere in the middle of that range is probably optimal.

28-30 will probably be the best fit on most cars. One needs to remember that what fits one car may rub on another. Plus as these cars are getting old more and more have some "history" that makes fitting more interesting.

The 23.3 8 inch fuch was not designed to fit the front of a 911. But it does, with minimal work.

The goal of building a custom wheel is to have the tire just clear the outer lip, and not rub, or rub minimally, on the inner fender well. But once again, that offset spec may need to vary a few mm depending on the car.

Cheers

[PatrickB]

+1 on that Jeff!

Do you make a Kodiak in a 17x8 for the front for a Carrera ('85) ??
PM me some details if you can... I'm thinking of getting some for track use after the first of the year...

[tdatk]

I run 911 7 &8 and had to slightly roll my front fender with 205 55 16's

[PatrickB]

Car looks sweet Tim! Hope she's bundled up in a safe warm spot for the winter...