Quick update: had something come up yesterday so I'm just now back at it.

I'm going to try to do all of the metal finishing in the trunk at the same time, so I've gone to installing the various panels one after the other in this area.

This afternoon I installed the smugglers box tab and started fitting in the trunk floor above the pedal box.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...2e4153b42e.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...78c098225f.jpg

It's been over 100 for the past several days, so its slower going with the hydration breaks!


keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Yep my shock bridge shows some fatigue in the joint with the frame rail down at the bottom, both fore and aft sides. My car weighs ~2500 lbs fully loaded and runs 800 lb. springs in the back. It's not bottoming now. But it could have in the past because the 930 flares show past contact with the tires.

I'll take a picture when I get home tonight. But it's generally where i've clouded it

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435095240.jpg

Neat! Would love to see the photos of that.


keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Here we go again! Zuffenhaus MS RSR project...
 

The trunk floor above the pedal box was quite a struggle for me today.

As I was positioning and cutting it in, plane misalignments were occurring everywhere. There were also shape differences at the steering shaft tunnel and smugglers box lid ledge joins which were expected, but the disparate planar relationships were a head scratcher.

I looked at several early and late chassis here at the shop, and scrutinized another 1987 chassis to verify that I wasn't dealing with prior frame damage/tweaks to this particular car.

What I discovered was interesting. The panel assembly (where and how the individual panels were fitted and spotwelded) between the two '87s were virtually identical, but showed very poor fit & alignment versus the long hood cars (which are very intentional in shape and very tight in panel fitment!)

I had trouble photographing the differences with my phone in such a way as to effectively show the differences, but I think it's best described as the long hood cars' having parallel and true horizontal planes on the upper trunk floor and tight joins to the spot weld flanges of the vertical walls below (and sides), whereas the trunk floor of the later chassis seem to sweep up at the sides (as if the stampings were too wide and fitted as best they would go between the side walls) and several of the spot welded areas to the vertical walls below show significant stretching of both panels at the joins to make them meet each other for welding.

The long hood panels are tight and crisp, well fitted; the G50s look sort of messy and forced together across gaps that seem as if resulting from panels that don't fit each other well.

All other things being equal, I wonder if this is because of a dimension issue on the vacuum-booster bulkhead pressing, or a function of increased output at Porsche, or possibly both (or something else entirely?)

In any event, the two '87s match each other, and the long hoods all match one another in these areas, so I'm comfortable that this is a sane observation...

So, needless to say, making the '87 play nice with the early trunk floor and look like a '73 in terms of crisp planes and parallel lines was eventful. Hammers were consulted quite a bit today.

This is how it turned out, for the most part:

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...49f3ea5ff7.jpg

Still more work to do here - need to add a tab, close 3 holes and make 2 new ones, and plug weld all of the spot weld holes tomorrow.

Interesting day, and unexpected!



keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Finally got some pictures of the shock tower. First one is the passenger side (right), forward side of the crossmember joint with the frame rail. Cracking is pretty obvious. I think adding a small, thick triangle plate across that intersection would be simple and effective?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435245803.jpg

Second is the driver side (left), forward side of the crossmember with no cracking at all.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435245865.jpg

Here's how the reinforcement was placed where the crossmember meets the frame rail inside the engine bay. Its on the sides and top of the joint. Same plate-welding done on both sides of car in the engine bay

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435245931.jpg

Here's how the top of the shock tube was plated. They only wrapped the tube 1/2 way around and welded the "cap" of the tube to prevent it from popping off. I suspect it was done 1/2 simply because there's no access to the forward side of the shock top w/out cutting out the firewall.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435245989.jpg

I plan to add the boxed gussets to capture the top of the shock tower caps like you have done, and also bring an X-bar arrangement from the cage's main hoop down to the tops of the shocks. I'm also going to connect the main hoop of the cage to the frame rail where it meets the shock tower. That should be more than enough reinforcement/support for that shock tower area!

Also going to drop some tubes from the main hoop legs to connect with the torsion bar tube

More work on the upper trunk floor today, beginning with cutting in the fuel vent hose depression (not present on either the '69 donor chassis or the '87 we're molesting, but a significant visual detail on '72-3 cars.)

Prepping the hole

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...7d97c6b723.jpg

Cutting in the donor piece

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...b506777710.jpg

Cleaning up

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...7cf93d000a.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...2f2af1211f.jpg

Since the wiring harness will be simplified and backdated appropriately, the large hole for the later harness needed to shrink a bit and relocate a slight amount, per 1973.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...380e5d38d4.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...37c806e26c.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...932b59c95e.jpg

And wrapping up the day was putting in the lower nut tab for the cowl brace (also not present on the '69, which used the HVAC cover as its brace)

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...e93859d419.jpg

This trunk has come a long way!

Tomorrow is all about grinding and finishing welds. (Ugh.). ;)


keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Interesting, My '69 has that depression in the sheet metal for the vent hoses..( i just ran out to the garage and checked)

I'm not sure.. If that cracking is from upward force of the coilover, then a horizontal plate won't help?

And why isn't there an issue here also, if this has occurred from use?

That looks minimal to me - we prefer to really envelop that intersection - our vertical frame rail plate extends inches toward the rear, the transverse vertical plate is triangular and extends to the shock mount area, and our horizontal plate covers the area fro the base of the shock tower to the pinch weld at the inner fender wall, and back the length of the frame rail vertical plate.

We try to armor that entire intersection, like a cast.

huh. we've never done that, either.

Wait - is that a rectangular weld seam in that photo (on the vertical face, facing the photo)? It might be a weird photo thing, but it looks like a patch?


If rules allow, tie-ins to the shock towers via diagonal kickers to the main hoop will stiffen things up a bit, as there is a direct line of travel of the suspension forces into the cage structure - you wouldn't need the RSR coil over reinforcements at that point, IMO.

not sure what this accomplishes, unless you're looking to reinforce the center of the torsion bar housing at the transmission mount? I can certainly see the benefit of that if you're high HP!

Who built the car, if I might ask?

Really! I'll check my partner's '69 tomorrow as well. Very interesting!

Thanks for the detailed point-by-point reply. Much appreciated and sorry for sidetracking the progress of your fantastic reconstruction!!!

I completely agree it's weird that only one side shows that cracking. Might be a heat & oil contamination issue that's simply compromised the undercoating? Passenger side in this area is where a lot of oil hoses have resided for a long time.

Like this? This is what i'm sort of shooting for.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1391207630.jpg

I too thought that the treatments applied to that joint on my car are rather minimal. I planned to do some welding in this area anyway, since the rear supports of the main hoop are going to land in this area. I can certainly beef that area up with more plating.

The previous hoop supports (already cut out) landed on the curved fender well panel with bolt-on saddle plates. My research tells me the cage is an old OG Racing bolt in cage that has been converted to weld-in. So i'm enhancing the cage along the way as I reinforce the suspension areas.

I suspect it was decided by the fabricator that'd be easier to cut and form some scrap pieces of plate vs. buying the nice RSR channeled gussets?

Yes that seam is welded vertically. Could have been a patch, since it's not unheard of for the top of the shock tube to pop off

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/739625-rear-crossmember-tower-damage-pics-coliovers.html

Yep that's the thinking. I figured i'd add the RSR pieces because I have them in hand, they look cool ;) and having them in place provides a cleaner/easier area for the tube to connect & weld. Gotta remember, we're talking about a minimally talented fabricator here (me). I do have the cool pipemaster tracing tool that helps me trace the shape of the tube notching where it'll connect with complex surfaces

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435334105.jpg

I'm thinking the bar going down to the inboard area of the torsion bar tube provides some support at the inner trailing arm pickup point. Or is this area already very strong & it doesn't really warrant any additional support here?

Car was allegedly prepped by Dawe's long ago in the late 90s, before it had coilovers. Owner before me got it in 2003-2004 and had it modified by Motor Werks in Georgia. I got it in 2010, hosed the engine in 2012 and since then have taken it almost entirely apart, trying to make it more better. :p

Tim, is your '69 a late build date? Both of the 69s here have the earlier sheet metal corner with the hose clip:

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...c29012ab34.jpg

I'm curious when the changeover to the new stamping began.


keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Not a lot of photos today; I hit the ground running and got all of the metal finishing in the trunk resolved, deleted the front jack points and random tabs, and ended the day looking in to a rust repair area at the back of the rocker. Didn't stop to take many pictures, was hustling.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...ca15c559df.jpg

Here where I left it when the lights went out.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...b2565628b7.jpg

Getting closer.


keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

I just rechecked the S/N of my car against the little tech spec booklet.

Vin 119123106

My car appears to be a late production 1969 911T, body produced by Karmann.

Maybe the Karmann produced bodies used the different stamping?

I'm almost positive my 69 has the indentation too. I'll have a look.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have you measured to verify that the shock towers/crossmember are still square to the ccenterline of the car? I'd want to verify that the passenger tower isn't pulled back toward the rear of the car.

Yes - we don't plate that far forward, and the plate on the rear firewall isn't really doing anything in that photo, but the reinforcement is likely more effective than yours is at the moment, I'd bet.


I agree that there are a lot of compromises with a bolt in cage, so many so that it will never fit like a stick built solution. Bolt-ins typically have to be proportionally smaller to ease installation (thus closer to the occupants) and several of them have questionable mounting points and locations...


Still can be very effective - the RSR stuff gets the style points, though.



My apologies, bad wording - I was looking at the closer vertical face of the crossmember itself - not the tower.



What year is your car? The later G50 chassis have factory reinforcements that mimic what was done on the original RSRs (on the torsion bar side) to resist braking forces at the center of the tube. You may not need anything there, depending on what is there already?



I don't know the GA shop, but it's got good bones if Dawe's had it first!

Here we go again! Zuffenhaus MS RSR project...
 

Ok, short day today (wanted to hang out with my wife before she heads to the mountains with family, so I cut it short.)

Since we're putting a roof on this thing and I've got easy access, I'm revisiting the drip rail delete we did back in 2007 (before this build became a build project!)

As I'm finding with other areas of these later chassis, not all of the panels align neatly from the factory. When the drip rails were removed (this is done a few inches at a time to maintain factory shape & relationships) the planes of the quarter panels above the quarter windows and the roof skin weren't co linear in several areas.

These areas had been smoothed with body filler when the car was first prepared for paint, before the Mary Stuart direction was determined (and later doubled-down on.)

I've stripped away all of the filler and have begun to slice and align the planes on either side of the drip rail weld line to make the contour more continuous and hopefully avoid the need for filler this time around (tall order, I know - we'll settle for 'minimal' filler if we have to.)

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...ea95456bfa.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...afd2bd3c5f.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...49489f9fed.jpg

This pushes us back a bit, but if it makes for a better end result, we need to do it.



keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Continue to enjoy following your progress Keith, the attention to detail and perfection is inspiring. Isn't the 140 a magnificent little machine, I love mine.

Here we go again! Zuffenhaus MS RSR project...
 

Yeah, I dig it - it gets more use than our 220 welders.

And thanks! Glad you like the work so far!


keith.

(sent from my rotary dial phone.)

Thanks for the feedback and sorry for the hijack.

You're spot-on right about the bolt-in cages being a compromise. The upper halo of the cage is "flat" and does nothing to trace the profile/curvature of the roof line. So the cage shape, along with the car being a (former........ heh heh) sunroof car, makes for limited headroom between the driver's helmet and the cage halo. So the headroom is actually what started the snowball effect of modifying the cage and that got me looking at what's going on at the rear with the coilovers.

It started with sunroof removal to dump the weight up high in the car, then it made sense to "shim up" the cage for more headroom, which then invites all sorts of other changes "while i'm in there" to reconnect the cage to the chassissippi.

Fantastic work indeed. I love watching these builds and fellas like Keith who take the time to document it with photos and descriptions/recommendations get a big thumbs up from me. I know from personal experience that doing so takes quite a bit of time to share the photos and describe what you're doing. You da man Keith!

Another vote of confidence here for the Miller 140. I have a lower cost Hobart 140, a good machine, and its downfall is the voltage adjustment is "binary" (knob only selects 1 or 2 or 3 etc.) instead of being infinitely variable. That's a big deal IMO.

Thanks! I appreciate having forums like this to discuss this stuff, and folks who are interested to discuss it with.

I got back on the drip rail deletion plane-matching work today; without reshaping both the roof and quarter panel contours the two panels will never flow continuously into one another (I can't figure out how to avoid losing too much of the structural/shape reference and still get enough free edge to re-contour these spans - and honestly that is beyond my shaping abilities at the moment) so I'm shooting for minimal depression at the weld seam; so as not to interfere with the overall contour when a minimal amount of filler is applied.

I bounced back and forth for cooling (tedium) and got it all stitched up. I had to use the stud puller to lift some of the upper quarter window frame contour on the passenger side:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435621951.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435621883.jpg



I also got into backdating the engine compartment walls. The Mary Stuart R7 chassis, being a factory RSR, had the fuel filter mount moved toward the firewall to accommodate twin CDI boxes. Since the boxes mount in the cabin on this particular car, I almost overlooked the filter mount relocation!


Here's the engine compartment reference photo:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435621519.jpg


The fuel filter console is tweaked out at the bottom (probably from hard life?) and makes a nice hose routing off the bottom of the filter. I spent some time with the torch and made ours similarly 'tweaked'

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435621639.jpg


Then I went about removing irrelevant studs and planning hole closures. The relocated filter console lands right on the ground lug, so I removed it and cut in a lug and surrounding metal from another donor chassis (swiped that lug from the upper trunk area behind the dash) and inverted the replacement piece to position the lug per our reference photo.

I'll weld it in tomorrow and resolve the remainder of the engine compartment as well.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435621818.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435621853.jpg