Help Me Build The Ultimate Porsche Tech Wiki Using This Board!!!

[Grady Clay]

Wayne & guys,

I won’t claim to be a computer search expert. I have trouble enough.

It seems to me that with paper manuals, a given workshop manual is linear (page numbers) but has both a Table of Contents and (if any good at all) a through Index. Porsche Workshop Manuals don’t even have an Index.

If you consider Porsche years, models, specific issues and more it is no longer linear. In fact it increases exponentially with each subject adding an exponent. Dealing with this only became possible with computers.

Leap forward to the Pelican Forums. There is a ‘Search Function’. It takes (I think) a ‘gross approach’ by searching first indexes and then finally the complete archive. I think there can be great benefit from a very complete “How to Search” set of instructions.

Wiki is probably a good (best, I don’t know) example of a ‘user entered’ database. The overall search function seems similar to Pelican.

At the top is the Google search engine (IMHO). I’m sure there are other good ones.


I think what we are talking about here is an ‘edited’ database of links. No original material (that belongs in the appropriate threads). Are we also talking about expanding the Pelican “Tech Info Center”? Those are generally ‘authored’ articles (both individually and collaboratively) on a single subject.


I think the real benefit of Pelican is the combination of collaborative input (threads) and ‘peer review’.

The question being asked here is how to take it to the next level.

The real values I see are:
Search ability on a given subject.
Collective input from many people.
Ability to link.

What more?

Is it reasonable to simply ‘tune’ the existing ‘Forum(s)’ and ‘Tech Info Center(s)’ to achieve this? Do we want to embark on a wider scale effort?

Pelican is Wayne’s ‘baby’. Does he want to absorb other forums to expand (possibly a good thing)?


I’m having tea with one of my former high school students tomorrow afternoon. He is a VP of Google now doing one of their big data/search projects. I’ll ask some questions.

What are the questions?

Best,
Grady

[imcarthur]

Wayne

If it is of any use, I have been achiving post links for several years. Here is my collection:

Forum Links

You are welcome to use what I have gathered.

Ian

[David E. Clark]

For starters, I love this idea. I've been collecting every Porsche tech article/thread/link I could find for years. I just looked and my Porsche folder is 5.38 GB with 755 sub-folders and 5,195 files. I point this out to show the "vastness" of this proposed project. If I can collect this much, imagine what the entire board has collected! In my opinion, the real value of a project like this will be the ability to quickly search and find material on a given subject.

For example, when I got up this morning I saw this thread: HELP! what calipers on this '66? and I was able to go to my Porsche directory, subdirectory "911", subdirectory "repair", subdirectory "brakes" and find a couple of useful brake caliper rebuild links. If the proposed project will allow quick searches of this type it will be GREAT. If we simply end up creating such a large "database" that we end up searching through mountains of "stuff" before we find useful information then I'm not sure we're any better off that using Google or the existing search functions of Pelican, Rennlist, Early E Registry etc. Just my 2’!

David

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Is it reasonable to simply ‘tune’ the existing ‘Forum(s)’ and ‘Tech Info Center(s)’ to achieve this? Do we want to embark on a wider scale effort?

Pelican is Wayne’s ‘baby’. Does he want to absorb other forums to expand (possibly a good thing)?

Grady raises some very good points. The "classic" Wiki are published articles, edited, groomed, tuned. That's a lot of work - but it can be spread over many people, so that can work.

Like most things in computers, the first 90% or so of the effort is usually very easy in comparison to the last 10% (the joke is that the first 90% takes 90% of the allotted time, and the last 10% also takes 90% of the allotted time).

For example, there's easily enough really good, definitive threads on Pelican that you could build up a comprehensive set of links for the best information quite quickly. This would certainly be worth doing, I think. Just publishing a page of "Ultimate Thread on XXX" links would go a long way towards that..

However, there's also little nuggets of gold in some threads that appear completely unrelated at first glance here and there, and you'd want that information as well, ideally...

I think that the best approach would be to, at some later point, distill the information from the linked threads las accurately as possible into an article on the subject, removing the forum chatter, banter etc - that's a lot more work, but the Wiki format allows more than a few people to do it, so...

Linking to external forums and sources of information presents another set of problems - what if those links die, or erroroneous/misleading information gets posted in them after they're reviewed/added?

It's a truism in computers that "bit-rot" sets in as soon as you "finish" something. Without constant maintainance, eventually it will become useless.

But I get the impression that there's enough people on the board with a vested interest in creating the best possible repository of information that this wouldn't be impossible to do. I think it'd be an awesome resource.

All the best of the incredible information and knowledge that's already here, but distilled and organised? How could it miss?

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Wayne

If it is of any use, I have been achiving post links for several years. Here is my collection:

Forum Links

You are welcome to use what I have gathered.

Ian

Geez Louise dude, you have a major obsessive/compulsive anal thing going on with data. That is just amazing. I think we should just post your links next to the search button at the top of the page.

Your category headings are a great start for TOC of a wiki too.

[Willem Fick]

This is a truly brilliant idea!

I was a newby once too, and understand exactly how difficult it is to find something using the search function. This is not so much because of my own ineptitude, but much more so from trying to sift through a myriad of potential matches - not to mention badly named, and very long threads. Even to this day I hate searches!

If we could break a Wiki up into a couple of logical sections (maybe not unlike the parts catalogue here at Pelican?), we will most definitely have a start. The next is then for those of us to whenever we do something on our cars to either see if it already captured on the Wiki and if so to use and audit it.

If it is not there it is our duty (our turn to return the favor to Wayne for hosting us!) to capture whatever we do onto the Wiki. It works for other forums, so why should it not here?

In as far as external links are concerned, I would agree with someone here who previously touched on the fact that links go bad. Not only do they go bad, but they also create the opportunity for other vendors to maliciously create links to their own sites, depriving Wayne of business. I am therefore in favour of a Wiki that allows no link to a site other than Pelican's picture server - if words or a picture cannot solve your problem, then maybe you should use the BBS or take you car to a specialist...

In as far as the workload is concerned; I have done a ton of stuff on my car, and would be more than willing to revisit what I have done and allow others to add to it. I am sure every single regular contributor here would be willing to do the same. Let's get going!

[livi]

This is a splendid idea (again)!

I am a notorious computer tech ignorant and will not be able to help, but a compilation of such 'papers' on tech advice would be a tremendous enhancement of an already premier forum!

[Quicksilver]

Hey Wayne
Have you thought about the intellectual property side of this? If I were you I would take a quick look at Copy Left and think about how you want the info to be dealt with. You might want to think about a channel for takedown notices too because you are now shifting into a world of a more fixed published work.

- - - - -
Kind of off to the side of the wiki thing...
One of the things that is missing from the forums that makes them hard to use as a resource, is the quality of the search functions. You can't do any real incisive boolean searches. If what I am looking for doesn't pop up after a couple tries I go to Google's advanced search page and do the search from there. That way I get all of the search tools I need and I just restrict the search to pelicanparts.com. It will even get me to the correct page of a thread. With the size of some of the threads it can be a trial to find just the correct page.
As an example: Google makes it easy to find that it is on page 10 where I describe how I carefully lit my hair on fire... -> admit to your stupidity

BTW - I am surprised that "Information on the Porsche 959" didn't accidently end up as the first item on your list.

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Geez Louise dude, you have a major obsessive/compulsive anal thing going on with data. That is just amazing. I think we should just post your links next to the search button at the top of the page.

Your category headings are a great start for TOC of a wiki too.

I used Wayne's headings from the Parts section - more or less. And I started it because it was too confusing just trying to file the links as bookmarks in my Favorites. I just save the links to a stored page & upload it once every couple of weeks. I use them all of the time.

Ian

[DonDavis]

I can't tell you how many times I have searched and searched and not found what I needed only to see someone else ask a similiar question soon thereafter and see an old thread referenced. That's probably a product of my poor search skills.

Here's my .02

How about a solution database.
The user could be linked from the various Tech Forums. From there, users would select from a list of topics such as the ones in Wayne's first post. The user would then enter a search topic and several related threads are displayed with "match" percentages. The more specific the "topic" the better the results, i.e., "MFI lean" vs. "MFI". After the user sorts though the results and finds what they need, they could offer ther own input regarding how well the thread matched their particular issue. Of course, this would be submitted to a Moderator for approval.

I don't know anything about managing a BBS so this may not work at all. I will say that any interactive database you create should have a moderator to filter what items are added. There are some fantastic threads here but in those a ton of BS can be found. I am grateful you are giving this some serious thought. Your BBS is a fantasic place but you also know how much crap can be tossed in.

[Grady Clay]

Guys,

You know what strikes me as strange is that PAG/PCNA doesn’t sponsor (or even support) something like this.

Consider taking all the period Factory Workshop Manuals, Spec Books, Service Information “Teknique” books and Service ‘Product Circulars’ and such and combine and update them. That is what we are attempting to do. Porsche doesn’t have the staff or full information to do this. The ‘community’ does as a collaborative effort, if including PAG.



Porsche should PAY Wayne to do this. At least they should provide information access.

Relatively speaking, these are OLD cars. Porsche has nothing to lose with some support. It has everything to gain as the ‘old car owners’ are their best sales people. You and I ‘sell’ the Porsche image every time we play, talk, buy, support anything related to Porsche. PKG realized that. VoA diluted it. PAG/PCNA needs to rejuvenate what is now missing.



This is one of these threads where we need to keep ‘reality’ in perspective. When PCs first were introduced and I could afford a useful computer, I had all these ideas. I even had IBM bid on a system for Rennenhaus in the mid ‘70s. Today the issues are more complicated and require significant up-front organization.

Perhaps the questions are:
What do we want?
How can we economically do it?

And not necessarily attempting “What is possible.” I’m playing ‘Devil’s advocate’ here.


Wayne & guys, what is the ‘Big Picture’?

Best,
Grady

[Quicksilver]

These are old cars. I can't understand why they don't put the early manuals on a DVD and sell them for a reasonable price...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I'd suggest we start with every post Warren made - should be easy to search on his user name...

Well, YES!!

Yes, it's sort of a weird thing that this thread got started when it did regardless of Mr. Fink having thought of it previously. I say that because I previously emailed Mark Wilson my outline for making Warren Hall's lung transplant funding a bigger success. The idea was pretty much the same as Wayne's/Fink's except the info was to been published under the name "Warren Hall Publishing." Contributions were to become an investment and gain beneficial tax status.

It has not been discussed and/or approved with Warren. The nest step in my process was to take the project to Wayne with his expertise in getting books actually published. This is not a perfect idea and needs a ton of massaging but it was a way to help, or so I thought.

The actual basis of the idea was to have Warren's info comprise the electrical and electrics history of the 911. Grady could have (or will do) the transmission part. And so on. Each was to edit the info we gathered from the Pelican archives.

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Wayne

If it is of any use, I have been achiving post links for several years. Here is my collection:

Forum Links

Outstanding, man!! I bookmarked that the first second it opened.

[stevemfr]

Hey Wayne,
noob here - but not to Porsche.

I think it's a terrific idea - though w/o at least condensing the posts in the threads into articles, you'll end up with something similar to Ian's link list.
A really good example of what can be done by consolidating forum and other info is at Rangerovers.net (although this was the work of one guy!!!).

I'd think the best way to go about it would be (something along the lines of) putting together a team of volunteers - as suggested - divvied by areas of expertise. Each volunteer(team of volunteers?) takes additional topics every now and again as editor(s) - and you are editor-in-chief .

I'd volunteer to take CIS.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Wayne

If it is of any use, I have been achiving post links for several years. Here is my collection:

Forum Links

You are welcome to use what I have gathered.

Ian

That is a great starting point, I will take you up on that offer!

Grady, my goal is to expand on what Ian has started, using the collective knowledge of the members here. There's no way that one person can do this on their own and completely cover everything.

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by milt

The next step in my process was to take the project to Wayne with his expertise in getting books actually published.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no money in book publishing. Not worth the effort as a fund raising project...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Wayne & guys, what is the ‘Big Picture’?

Grady

Where the Pelican Wiki will be the ultimate source of information on Porsches in the world. Pelican is already probably the #1 source between the tech articles and the forums, but we need to get this information organized and compartmentalized for ease of reference...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Geez Louise dude, you have a major obsessive/compulsive anal thing going on with data. That is just amazing. I think we should just post your links next to the search button at the top of the page.

Your category headings are a great start for TOC of a wiki too.

This is the whole point of the Wiki project - to get a list like this, but one that is 100X bigger!

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by stevemfr

Hey Wayne,
noob here - but not to Porsche.

I think it's a terrific idea - though w/o at least condensing the posts in the threads into articles, you'll end up with something similar to Ian's link list.
A really good example of what can be done by consolidating forum and other info is at Rangerovers.net (although this was the work of one guy!!!).

I'd think the best way to go about it would be (something along the lines of) putting together a team of volunteers - as suggested - divvied by areas of expertise. Each volunteer(team of volunteers?) takes additional topics every now and again as editor(s) - and you are editor-in-chief .

I'd volunteer to take CIS.

We need to start with a reasonable goal, with more work coming later on. The compilation of the links / resources project would be the first of many steps...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by Willem Fick

This is a truly brilliant idea!
In as far as external links are concerned, I would agree with someone here who previously touched on the fact that links go bad. Not only do they go bad, but they also create the opportunity for other vendors to maliciously create links to their own sites, depriving Wayne of business. I am therefore in favour of a Wiki that allows no link to a site other than Pelican's picture server - if words or a picture cannot solve your problem, then maybe you should use the BBS or take you car to a specialist...

I'm not too terribly concerned about this, as 95% of the links would probably point to reputable sources, and also the traffic and business brought from people coming to the site would counter any false redirection to other sites. I can also run a link checker on all of the links to verify that they are good. Or, people can post alerts to us if links go bad...

-Wayne