When did 911's get really good A/C?

[Moses]

I'm always shopping. Sort of looking for a coupe. What year did 911's get good, reliable air conditioning. The A/C in my SC was so pathetic I pulled it.

[carolinatrophy]

Reliable? I don't know. But the a/c in my Carrera 3.2 is actually pretty effective. It won't make me shiver on the most blazing days of a Carolina summer, but it keeps pace even on the hottest days. Plus, there are numerous companies like RENNAire that offer upgraded components, so I imagine you can get any 911 a/c to function pretty effectively these days.

[JeremyD]

Mark - when they went with the rear condensor in the 964 it got better - so 1989-1990 - I think the 993 is one more step up the food chain - and is one step better.

For a coupe - I would definitely target a 993. They came with the multilink rear suspension.

One thing though - stuff on the 993 and 964 cars is expensive. wear items are $$$ more than 3.2 stuff.

Rotors/brakpads/distributor cap/wires/sparkplugs etc - all more $$

[livi]

Not before it got water pumped (98). The 964 and 993 are much better than the SC and Carrera 3.2, but still way behind the 996.

[Car Guru]

Oddly enough the A/C in my '88 is better than in my wifes '08 Mercedes and that's pretty good. If older 911 ever had bad A/C I wouldn't be convinced as my car will freeze you to death.

-Ryan

[dmwallace]

+1 on what JeremyD said...if you are interested in an air-cooled car with good A/C I'd concentrate on the 993. My first car was a '89 3.2L coupe; I did some A/C upgrades including a new compressor, evaporator and a ProCooler but the system still did not deliver a high volume of cold air during summers here in NC. I was contemplating replacing both front & rear condensers on the '89 with newer serpentine models (like the Kuehl) but when a local 993 came available I decided to make the move to 993.

Regards,
David

[SXSMAN]

Originally Posted by Moses

I'm always shopping. Sort of looking for a coupe. What year did 911's get good, reliable air conditioning. The A/C in my SC was so pathetic I pulled it.

OOoo ! OOoo !!!

Pick me !

I know this one !

After Jim Sims .

SxS

[tcar]

My SC has GREAT A/C. Factory w/ R-12. Put a homemade duct/vent in place of the bowtie.

Have to turn it down, even on 100 degree days.

Of course 100 here is not like 100 in Florida.

[stevemfr]

+1 on everything Jeremy said - except that the condenser on the 964's and 993's are up front, not in the rear, and the 964 and 993 Heat/AC is basically the same.

That said, the biggest probs with the older 911's ACs are:
- way too little airflow over an already marginal condenser surface at low speeds
- too little volume of chilled air from the evap due to a marginal fan and restrictive ducting, especially on pre 86 models

Fix those issues with a properly maintained AC and the 911 should keep you relatively cool even in a blast furnace.

[tsuter]

Just use current technology. No need for fancy plumbing, complex systems.

My 78SC A/C is just fine!!! R134a.



Ambient was 93F, 103F above the condenser when I took this last Monday!

Oh that's with the stock blower. Its fine. Modified bow tie vent.....

[GH85Carrera]

Buy a Carrera or SC and upgrade the A/C for mega thousands less than a 993 or 996.

You can get very cold A/C from a SC or Carrera for a lot less money than buying a 996. It all comes down to your budget. My 85 Carrera's A/C is now equal to a modern car. The heater is the best in in the world.

[stevemfr]

Originally Posted by tsuter

Just use current technology. No need for fancy plumbing, complex systems.

My 78SC A/C is just fine!!! R134a.

Actually, R12 has a slightly lower boiling point and is the better refrigerant. Just not from the ozone layer's point of view.

[ajmarton]

I have a constant freon leak that requires a charge every 3 months or so. I just recharge the system for summer and skip winters. My mechanic wants to change the system to R34. Any thoughts (I have a 1989 911 Cab).

[dmwallace]

If it were me, I would want to know the source(s) of the leak first. In my previous car (also a 89), the previous owner had chased a leak for several months before replacing one of the long hoses that goes to/from the evaporator. When I started looking at A/C improvement projects with my mechanic he added some dye to the system and discovered that the compressor was also starting to leak.

I believe it is also the case that if you switch to R34 you will get more freon losses from your hoses until you change to barrier-style hoses that are designed for the new freon.

David

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by Moses

I'm always shopping. Sort of looking for a coupe. What year did 911's get good, reliable air conditioning. The A/C in my SC was so pathetic I pulled it.

Mose,
With regard to a "911"

1) The first major improvement started with
factory air cars around 1978, or the SC's; when the front condenser became prominent and the ac vent system moved from knee pad vent panel to an in the dash vent; a main center vent over the radio and two small slotted vents on the sides.

2) The next major improvement came in 1984 Carrera (1983 for 930's); the two small slotted vents were enlarged and the large York crankshaft compressor was replaced with swash plate Nippondenso.

The overall system layout, two condensers and dash vents, for the SC and Carrera's are basically the same. There are pro's and con's with repairing and upgrading either. Logically other vehicle changes and improvements through the year, such as fuel management, transmissions, etc. , might lean you toward the 84 through 89 years (pre 964). However both SC and Carrera's air conditioning systems can be repaired and improved in like components: drier replacement, compressors, barrier hose lines, improved evaporators, additional condenser capacity and additional vents.

There are are some good points in this post, if you like the 911.... GH85Carrera made the point; for the total investment (vehicle and improvements) it can be less costly than the 96x models.

We have many clients contact us about their 964 or 993 models and the consensus we felt was that ac repairs alone (replacement parts and labor) vs. improvements were equal if not more compared to the earlier 911; for example, for an experienced mechanic or DIY, R&R of a 911 evaporator ranges from 1-3 hours, however a 964 or 993 evaporator starts with 11 hours. The original ac controls (thermostat and fan speed) on the 911, although primitive, are much easier to troubleshoot and replace in terms of labor and materials as compared to a 964 or 993. The 964 and 993 compressors crash earlier and harder and the condenser is prone to corrosion from accumulations of debri. This is not to say the 964-993 do not have a few ac benefits: much of the ac lines are aluminum tubing, just one condenser is used and the climate control is easily dialed in.

There are plenty of DIY experiences posted in the 911 Forum and if you want a good primer on the overall system you may want to read the Mr. Ice Project here : http://www.griffiths.com/porsche/ac/ice/

[stevemfr]

Originally Posted by kuehl

There are are some good points in this post, if you like the 911.... GH85Carrera made the point; for the total investment (vehicle and improvements) it can be less costly than the 96x models.

We have many clients contact us about their 964 or 993 models and the consensus we felt was that ac repairs alone (replacement parts and labor) vs. improvements were equal if not more compared to the earlier 911; for example, for an experienced mechanic or DIY, R&R of a 911 evaporator ranges from 1-3 hours, however a 964 or 993 evaporator starts with 11 hours. The original ac controls (thermostat and fan speed) on the 911, although primitive, are much easier to troubleshoot and replace in terms of labor and materials as compared to a 964 or 993. The 964 and 993 compressors crash earlier and harder and the condenser is prone to corrosion from accumulations of debri. This is not to say the 964-993 do not have a few ac benefits: much of the ac lines are aluminum tubing, just one condenser is used and the climate control is easily dialed in.

I really can't imagine buying a car simply based on its AC. And as Moses is not a newbie around here, I imagine he has something in mind.

If it is a 'real' 911 (pre 964), then Kuehl's advice is great. But comparing the later (post 964) heater / AC to the earlier cars heat / AC is like comparing a thermostat controlled home HEVAC to a space heater and a window AC - its just not the same. Sure the space heater will keep you warm and the window AC cool - but that's about it. Too warm or cold? Adjust knobs and levers. That combined with hair drier volumes of air... Please don't misunderstand me: I've spent quite a bit of time making my own cars and customers cars heat, cool, defrost, etc., etc. well. I know they can warm and cool you. And personally I've lived with an '84, '88, 993 and my present '76 has no AC, but the heat has been upgraded to later spec (no fun driving a street 911 in Europe otherwise). The 964/993 may be more costly to repair, but it is miles better than what was there in the older models.

If you are going to buy a 911 based on HEVAC, buy an '89 or later.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by stevemfr

I really can't imagine buying a car simply based on its AC. And as Moses is not a newbie around here, I imagine he has something in mind.

Steve,
Believe it or not people do ask questions like this; we get them often, "Hey, I was looking at two SC's the other day, one was a US spec car that had air and one was a Euro without ac. How much does it cost to put ac in the Euro...?"

Originally Posted by stevemfr

If it is a 'real' 911 (pre 964), then Kuehl's advice is great.

If you are going to buy a 911 based on HEVAC, buy an '89 or later

I thought this was the 911 board.

Well I'm no King Solomon when it comes to answering a simple question.

Yo. Moses! come down and clarify.

[Moses]

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses.

The A/C in my '83 SC was pathetic. As I slowly morphed the car into a track car, I decided to lose the A/C rather than try to resurrect it.

I'm beginning to look for a new car that will see more daily use. I'm not a fan of the new cars. Just too big for my taste. I'm looking for a coupe that I can drive comfortably in freeway traffic when the thermometer tops 100.

I've been looking at some 964's. I saw an RS America that looked nice and a '92 turbo that really, really turned my head. I'm just wondering if these cars will keep me comfortable without re-engineering the air conditioning.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by Moses

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses.

I'm looking for a coupe that I can drive comfortably in freeway traffic when the thermometer tops 100.

I've been looking at some 964's. I saw an RS America that looked nice and a '92 turbo that really, really turned my head. I'm just wondering if these cars will keep me comfortable without re-engineering the air conditioning.

As far as 100 F..... hmmmmm..... Buy a (radiant) light color (white, silver)! We don't hear much in terms of "much" better than a 911 in terms of comfort near that temp in a c2, c4 or 993 when sitting in traffic, whereas my 87 cabriolet will freeze you out as it is modified.

On 964/993 there is not too much improve other than evaporator
http://www.griffiths.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_16_56_59&products_id=60
as all the real estate is taken (for adding things).

Just to keep things in balance I would bounce it off the 964/993 board and
ask them, "anyone driving in 100F weather and are you happy with your ac?" (and your ac control module, climate control flap servo's, power steering leaks, oil leaks. etc;; only joking).

[stevemfr]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Steve,
Believe it or not people do ask questions like this; we get them often, "Hey, I was looking at two SC's the other day, one was a US spec car that had air and one was a Euro without ac. How much does it cost to put ac in the Euro...?"

I know. I installed AC's for a coupla years meself- and converted grey market p-cars for a coupla years. So I'm very well aware of that combination leading to the big AC question.

Actually what I meant was, I can't imagine making a decision to buy a certain model car (911 vs 964 vs 993/6/7 or a MB SLC or BMW for that matter) based solely on the HEVAC...