DE questions

[mtnfir]

Hey All,
After owning my car for a bit over two years, I signed up for my first DE event. I will be attending the end of October DE at Road Atlanta. I've got several questions. First, what should I expect. The event takes two days and costs a little bit. Hat do the two days typically consist of. How much track time versus class time? Secondly, does regular insurance cover these events or do you need special policies? Does full coverage typically cover DE events? Lastly, I am in need of new tires. I've got stock Fuchs 15 inch wheels and am currently running pirelli p6000 tires. Hat better tires are there for both DE and road conditions as it is a daily driver?
thanks

[tonythetarga]

For your first DE, you will want to check with your club (PCA?) about sessions per day and what tech inspection needs to be performed.
This link should help you prep for what to bring with you: Things to bring to DE

As far as insurance goes, you have to check your policy. Some companies exclude damage from DE's, others don't... YET. This is a big issue and if you can find insurance for track driving it is very expensive and has a big deductible. The key is to drive within your limits and listen to your instructor.

PCA events usually have 4 instructed sessions a day and classroom and exercise skills between track sessions. Sessions usually run about 20 to 25 minutes each depending on the number of run groups.

As far as tires go, if you need new tires anyway, find a set of tires that are properly speed rated for high spped. You want the first event to be on street tires anyway as some clubs don't allow R compound tires for drivers that have never been on track before. You will probably get some suggestions from the group here about a good tire for street and one that performs well on the track for a novice.
Most of all..HAVE FUN. Learning what a Porsche can do on the track is the best part of ownership.

[GH85Carrera]

A DE is the most fun you can have in your Porsche with your clothes on. As mentioned above just drive at your comfort level. There is no timing of the runs. It is all just for fun and learning. You will learn a lot about your car, and just how far you are from a real race driver. You will learn a lot, and next time you will be faster. Even at your best, if you are like me, you will learn to have fun and will not care at all that some other guy driving a car that is supposed to be slower than you drive away and leave you in the dust.

As far as insurance call and talk to your insurance company. I would tell them you are thinking of participating in a DE. It is not a race it is a way to learn to drive better. If your insurance company goes nuts, it is time to change companies. My agent knows full well that I autocross every month and I participate in DE events.

The bottom line is have FUN, drive safe at YOUR comfort level don't push it. You will be a better driver on the road and much more confident in your abilities.

[tdatk]

To add to the DE prep.
Get there early....you will be excited and forgetful enough as it is and you'll need the extra time to acclimate.
Night before..... Pack all the things you think you need then and set you tire pressures, put your tech inspection paper in the glove box, make sure you have your approved helmet,clean all the glass......the list goes on.

[911st]

If you have not prepped your braking system your brakes may get soft and the peddle may even go to the floor. It will usually come back after things cool. I run a sport pad, took the brake backing plates off and run high temp fluid and had no issues.

Where I ran it was hot so I took the passenger side fog light out for more air to my oil cooler.

Get a good air pressure gage and a lug wrench to check your lug nuts. Especially if you are running stock alloy nuts. You will likely need to add air pressure to the tires and if street tires will likely make a bunch of noise. Others know more than I but I started at 36 lbs cold and kept them at about 40 hot.

Might want to take lots of watter and some food as not all tracks offer full support during DE's. A folding chair might be a good idea if you want to join others under there easy-up.

The DE's I went to had about 3 20 minute runs each day or about 150+ track miles.

Don't forget gas. You might be surprised how much you will use.

Oil, I ran mine just above the have way mark. Sometimes if you overfill you can suck oil back into the motor and make a lot of smoke.

I am sure there is more but mostly, just get there and have fun and take it easy. They should put you through a ground school and have you run with an instructor the first day.

[rattlsnak]

Peachstate usually runs 4-5 run groups a day. On the first day you will get 3 though. On day one, you will be in the classroom in the morning until right before lunch, then you will go out basically playing follow the leader showing you the "line", and then after that, you go off with your instructor. As a group 1 student, you will be with your instructor the entire weekend. No more classroom time after that. Great time.. As far as tires, you can use R type if you want, but if youre looking for a street/de tire, there are many that are good, like Michelins, Goodrichs, etc.

Most insurance companies will not cover anything done at the track. You could argue that it is a "driving education school", and that has worked a few times with people I know. But you shouldn't really worry about that, as it's highly doubtful that your instructor will let you get out of shape that bad your first time out.

[widgeon13]

On the issue of insurance, I wouldn't talk to the carrier/insurance company. Get your policy out and read it to see what you can find out. Some companies will cancel on the spot if they know what you are doing with the car.

[rattlsnak]

Of course if you do wreck it, you could simply tow it/drive it home and say you fell asleep at the wheel , ran off the road, and had it towed home. (spare me the ethics speeches please,.. I said you "could", didnt say you "should")

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

You asked about track time versus class time. The numerous PCA DEs that I've participated in don't have any "class time," in terms of chalkboard lectures about apexes and lines and all that stuff that you'd expect at a Skip Barber course. Novices are required to attend a brief session at the beginning of the day, and maybe another one at the end of the first green run group, but they basically deal with passing rules, what do if you you spin, stuff like that. Not instruction. That takes place on the track, with your instructor.

If it's your first DE, it's way to early to worry about "the best DE tires." Buy good road tires, whatever you decide they are. There will be plenty of time next year, or whenever, to start thinking about mounting a set of Toyo R's, say, on track wheels. There's really no such thing as a tire that's great for everyday road use and terrific as a dedicated track tire. It's a compromise, so go for one or the other.

Approach your first DEs as total learning experiences. There is no competition, unless you're doing it wrong. Imagine you're learning to speak French and you've never spoken a foreign language before. Take it slow, don't be afraid of sounding (driving) silly, don't think you're going to speak like Maurice Chevalier in 15 minutes, and especially don't think that anybody will think less of you if you can't: The smart beginners at DEs encourage each other, pump each other up, willingly share their gaffes and mistakes. If you happen to run into a green-group person who can only talk about how they blew the doors off that jerk in the Turbo, find somebody else to talk to.

[Jagshund]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

Of course if you do wreck it, you could simply tow it/drive it home and say you fell asleep at the wheel , ran off the road, and had it towed home. (spare me the ethics speeches please,.. I said you "could", didnt say you "should")

For more information on this type of activity, please refer to "Fraud, Insurance" or "Chain Gang, 1001 Ways to Join A."

There's a GT3 in Alpharetta whose owner tried this with no success (towed it down to 285 and tried to report it as an accident). I've heard he's recently out of prison but the car is still impounded.

[efhughes3]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

As far as insurance call and talk to your insurance company. I would tell them you are thinking of participating in a DE. It is not a race it is a way to learn to drive better. If your insurance company goes nuts, it is time to change companies. My agent knows full well that I autocross every month and I participate in DE events.

You gotta be kidding? An agent has no say in this whatsoever unless he's the insurer. Most insurance companies have excluded coverage for any event on a track, timed or not, racing or education. I can see it now, an agent "knows" you're going to the track, gives you his blessing, you get hurt and it is documented where the incident occurred (track), and then the insurance company denies claim. At that point, your agent's word means nothing.

The only way I'd take any one's word on this is if they put it in writing.

The thought process should be that you only track a car you can afford to lose.

There are alternatives to no coverage, and while they aren't inexpensice, per se, they're a lot cheaper than writing off your car. Look at these guys: http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/Default.aspx?cID=31

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

You asked about track time versus class time. The numerous PCA DEs that I've participated in don't have any "class time," in terms of chalkboard lectures about apexes and lines and all that stuff that you'd expect at a Skip Barber course. Novices are required to attend a brief session at the beginning of the day, and maybe another one at the end of the first green run group, but they basically deal with passing rules, what do if you you spin, stuff like that. Not instruction. That takes place on the track, with your instructor.

Peachstate has classroom time IIRC. Students will spend a portion of Saturday morning in a classroom discussing braking point, apexes and all that fun stuff.

I'll be at this DE also. Just look for the orange 911 and come over and say hey!

[fredmeister]

Try to get a few rides at speed in your instructors car when he runs in his session. This will give you appreciation for what the car is capable of and alos makes it easier to learn the line of the track when you are a passenger and not driving.
Get yourself a track map to carry with you to review so you know where you are on the track and can discuss with others.
Lots of fluids and bring extra oil for your car. Any special tools for your car bring along as well, and get there early so your not rushed.

[Steveinatlanta]

Was at the last Road Atlanta DE and parked next to a guy in the same situation. His first DE, didn’t come with a friend or know anybody and was just kind of stressed the whole weekend. The whole DE thing was more than a learning experience, he was (in my humble opinion) uncomfortable to be so far out of his element. He was a very nice guy, we encouraged him and I think he honestly had fun – It’s actually a brave thing to do, I know when I first started doing DE’s I had a couple of friends who bugged me for more than a year - I knew people when I finally got to the track.

More than anything, I think he was just rattled at how bad he was at it. It’s kind of important to know we were all that bad, if not worse. And you're not going to be a lot better in a weekend or two. It wouldn’t be nearly as much fun if we weren’t a looong way from being good.

Here’s a couple of additions to the usual list. They all fall in to the category “Ask me how I know”

Don’t worry at all about hurting your car or that you are in some way going to embarrass yourself. You aren't going to hurt your car, but you are probably going to embarass yourself. You are in group 1. best to Leave both of those to the people in the higher groups anyway.

You are going to get a lot of lead / follow time on the track before your group 1 run times.

Try to avoid creating a long term, nagging problem for yourself. If you think about it, we all do this one. Tire pressures, sway bars, missing gloves, in car cameras, what’s that vibration, turn 7, etc.

Get a good checklist, stay organized and introduce yourself to the people around you. Then don’t be afraid to ask them questions. Honest, no matter how snarky they look, everyone wants to be helpful.

Try to understand what line, apex, turn in point, heel and toe, hot pit and what all the flags mean before you get there. Most importantly, if you don’t understand what all those things mean, then don’t worry about it.

Watch some in car videos of Road Atlanta. It helps to know the turns and their number (get a map). Not because you’ll do a better job, but because everyone refers to turns by their number and at your first DE it can seem odd. Someone will say “Well, it’s like your approach to turn 7, bla, bla, bla”. If you know the turns you don’t have to say, after a long story, “Now, which one is turn 7?” “Is that the squiggly one with the left turn at the end?”

Your instructor should offer to let you go out with him as a passenger. You should do this as often as he lets you. Big eye opener. But, he doesn’t want you to go every time as you add weight and isn’t as much fun for him. Oh, and be prepared, you may throw up. No kidding.

Don’t forget to watch for the cones.

See you there

[jhynesrockmtn]

Careful, this is what can happen when you start doing drivers school and DE's






You buy race cars and track cars!

Get info from the club on what to do and bring, get your car teched, fresh oil and brake fluid, lots of water, stay within your limits, listen to your instructor and be really nice to all the volunteers. I can't speak to the insurance issues, I never drive something on the track I can't afford to walk away from. Have fun.

[DCobra]

If you can get access to a copy of the video game Forza, it will absolutely show you the driving line for Road Atlanta. I met a guy at the june De that was from out of state and had learned the track from video games.

[Christien]

Wow, in just over 24 hrs you've been given an entire college course worth of info! All of it is good, and all of it you'll forget when you're there.

If you get classroom time, that's great, because it'll calm your nerves before what you *think* you're going to do to your car. They'll teach you everything you NEED to know in there, and little more, because you have to learn it yourself.

My advice would be remember three things, and three things only:
1. Listen to your instructor.
2. These cars were meant to be driven like this - it can handle it and more.
3. Drive within your comfort zone.

And of course, have fun!

[Phat Euro Cab]

Road Atlanta, try to park in the tree area behind the building. It's close to the classroom, track entry, and much cooler if the suns out than on the big blacktop area.

[Steveinatlanta]

Found a great old RA video of the track in the early 80's. If you skip through the first half, Wally Dallenbach jr describes the course corner by corner - Before it changed! (turn 10 is now 10a and 10B)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZG218mT2LU

Dcobra is right about Forza, it will help get the track committed to memory. My 11 year old can beat me (read: embarrass me) on the video game every time.

[VroomGrrl]

I'm preparing for my first DEs this fall as well.

First, check out this video of Patrick Long doing a lap at Road Atlanta - best watched with track map in hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-dosPiN14o

I decided a few months ago to get into track driving/DE stuff, but starting from zero, I was worrying about everything. So I joined NASA and started to familiarize myself with the whole experience by showing up as a track worker at their events near me. Since then I've worked events with other groups as well, either at Barber or Road Atl.

Let me just say that I would hate to show up at my first DE without the valuable info I have gained by working events! I highly recommend this as a way to familiarize yourself with the tracks, drivers, instructors, officials, cars, lingo, rules, flags, and just how things go at track events.

Also = for me, I decided that I did not want to do my first DE in a situation where they send out novices & more advanced folks at the same time. Let's just say I learned from what I saw - that IS how NASA does it. And I'm NOT slamming NASA for doing it that way, either. It's fine...for some. But not what I prefer for me.

I decided for me, I'd rather be a little more coddled on my first time out And there are groups who do it differently, sending novices out in their own groups, and so I took a little more time, did a little more asking around, and found a group doing an event near me that does it that way & signed myself up (TGPR on 10/25). I know the actual run groups will ultimately be determined by who shows up & how they have to space out the track time that day in light of actual attendance. But at least I've chosen a setting that has the highest odds of a novice only group.

I've done several at-speed ride-alongs, also. Working events, it's easy to line up rides. I have to say that the thing I love best about auto sport is that the folks are just great, so helpful, everybody had a first time, and they are all happy to tell you their stories and help in any way they can.

Good luck & have fun! Can't wait to hear your report. I'll be back with mine after 10/25!