Tie Rod & Ball Joint replacement questions

[Dauner]

Hi everyone,

I have a 1989 911 Targa 3.2 with 210K miles, and the original tie rods and ball joints. I have purchased new turbo TR kit and all of the components for ball joint replacement, including the castle nut installation tool. Couple questions:

1. Everyone says BIG pipe wrench to remove old ball joint castle nuts. BIG is a relative word. can someone recommend a size big enough that worked for you, but is not so big that I will never be able to use for anything else ever? I can't remember how they are sized, but I think it is by handle length. I believe they get laughably big.
2. I have been doing all of my research and planning assuming I am not removing the A-arms. I've done a fair amount of work on the car, including engine drop and timing chains, and "in general" I haven't had a problem with rust or frozen beyond recourse, but maybe this will be the first. Car spent 95% of life in Tulsa OK, and is pretty clean. Am I taking the more difficult route, thinking it is the easier one?
3. I am planning on replacing ball joint first, then tie rod, as it seems tie rod end removal is much less stress on new ball joint than visa versa. Does it matter? will do passenger side first complete, then switch to driver side.

Thanks in advance!

Mark

[Chuck.H]

it's not so much the size of the pipe wrench, it's the 12' pipe you'll put on the handle - get one strong enough to take this kind of torque. Mine is almost 2' end to end. Be careful you don't pull the car off your lift or jack stands.

I use a little micro torch to heat up the struts to get those ball joint pins out, put a second nut on the threads and just keep tapping away on them.

If you are replacing your tie rods, you can use one of those pickle forks to remove the old ones, which works well but destroys the old boot.

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 365k miles

[KTL]

Good tips from Chuck as usual.

The pipe wrench is nice to use because it grips really tight. No big deal marring the surface of the ring nut- you don't even see it. Key is indeed getting enough leverage. You can sometimes create too much leverage and that's why Chuck said to watch out you don't move the car off the jack stands. The front of the car is fairly light and easy to shift its weight. The ball joint nut is a heavily loaded suspension piece so it's not uncommon for that ring nut to be stubborn due to spending it's whole life being put under a lot of stress

Another trick is to use a blunt, thick chisel ("cold" chisel for masonry work, NOT a wood chisel!!! ) and a sledgehammer. Suspension work usually requires some shocking to get things loose. This trick works good. You can use the specialty ball joint socket (a GM 4wd socket also works with some slight modification) with an impact gun, but the heavy hammering from the impact gun usually beats up the square nubs on the socket. Better to use the socket for installation to torque the ring nut to spec.

On the tie rod end, yes I agree just use the pickle fork. You're going to discard the old tie rod ends anyway- be sure to scrap/recycle them properly! A good trick there is to drive the pickle fork home with a hammer and let it "load" the connection created by the wedge effect. You may find that the fork gets all the way in and the rod end still hasn't popped off the steering arm. Don't worry. Strike the steering arm HARD with your hammer while holding the fork so the fork doesn't jump off when the pin pops The shock effect will make the rod end stud pop out of the steering arm bore. Don't worry about damaging/denting the steering arm, as its hardened steel.

There's also various press style tools that work on the tie rod end. But the fork should do the trick.

When you reinstall the ball joint and the tie rod end, don't forget to put a thin swab of anti-seize paste on the pins. It'll make future removal easier.

You want to replace the wedge pin in the ball joint connection. Do not reuse the old one as this pin is notoriously brittle and can break when reused.

Take a close look at the A-arms while you're working. If you notice the rubber bushings are offset/not centered on the A-arm you should consider replacing the bushings. It would be a shame to replace the tie rods and ball joints and still have the deformed bushings in place. Should the bushing deformation be present, it's already compromising your alignment settings.

[GH85Carrera]

I used a blunt point air chisel on my air hammer. Pick one of the gaps on the nut and pull the trigger. It rotated right off. The air hammer was a harbor freight cheapie but I don't use it much. It was real easy.

[KNS]

When I did the ball joints on my 1980 the right side came off nice and easy. The left side was a *****. tried all the tricks mentioned above. Finally got the Dremel out and cut it off. I should have done that in the first place.

New ball joints made a noticeable difference in handling (old ones were shot).

[Tidybuoy]

I just did my ball joints about 2 months ago. I don't really think there is enough room for a pipe wrench as most of the nut is covered by the suspension arm (the nut is a bit recessed). However, if there is room, I think you could get a regular, large size, that could also be used around the house - no need for a Harbor Freight Huge one.

I ended up finding a similar tool to the install tool at Pep Boys for $16. It's a little too big but it worked great for removing the old nut using an air impact wrench. The Pep Boys socket is just like the one from Pelican, but deeper. I wouldn't use the Pelican tool for removal as it gets destroyed with

Also, that nut is on tight. It's a good idea to spray with PB blaster or similar. Even if you spray from the top, some of it seep into the threads (over night).

[OffCamber00]

I use an impact gun w/ the 4x4 axle socket that has been discussed on this site. Comes right off.

[RD911T]

I got one side off w the 4x4 axle socket and ruined the tool on the other. Bought an 18" pipe wrench off Amazon and it did the trick even with very little surface to grip on the ring nut.

[steely]

pipe wrench size is dependent on it's jaw to get around the nut easily - then use a 3-5 ft extension pipe for a nice moment arm (leverage).

watch you do no hurt the control arm

[steely]

[Dauner]

Status update: 2 questions at end of post. Kind of in holding pattern.

Ball joint pin came out in couple of minutes. I removed nut, sprayed PB Blaster in, let sit for a minute, put nut back on to protect threads. And medium light hits with a 16 oz hammer.

Next was castle nut. I remember from when i was 12 (35 years ago) removing a similar type ring nut to get bottom brackets out of old bicycles to hammer chisel sequentially around the perimeter in the 4 notches. I only had tools from dad's workshop, which didn't include a spanner. I tried similar activity on the castle nut with 3 pound sledge and cold chisel. After 10 minutes, the nut was getting deformed in the notches, but not budging. Grabbed my pipe wrench to see if i could get bite. Seemed plausible, but like everyone says, no where near enough torque. Went to fleet farm and bought a 36" x 1.25" galvanized steel pipe (the 1" wouldn't fit over pipe wrench handle. Glad i brought wrench in to store). Took me three tries, and maybe four minutes to get good bite, and the nut came free. I jacked the hub up, and the ball joint fell out. Cleaned everything up, focusing in the seat where new ball joint will sit. In a trial fitup with new ball joint, my notch at base of ball joint, and v notch for cotter pin were not clocked correctly. New ball joint way too tight to move or spin with my hands. Head scratcher. Would be nice if manufacturer clocked them correctly as last step of mfg process. I ended up pushing ball joint up in to strut, partially setting with pin, to hold it somewhat tight, away from a-arm. I could pivot it back and forth enough now and made tiny rotations axially during the process. I didn't get it perfect, but it was close enough that i could set new ball joint on seat, jacked hub assembly so ball joint shaft slid in to strut, and pin could get partially thru its hole. Couple of medium light taps on back of pin, and it worked its way thru ( rotating ball joint shaft in the process) so i could get the nut started. Got castle nut started and hand tight and moved on to tie rod.

I bought a tie rod end puller from st. Paul harbour freight store, that was kind of similar to the unavailable Pelican sir tools puller. Got started cranking bolt, but no movement. Kept tightening, until KAPOW! Came free, but i honestly was more startled than i have been in a long time. I'm shocked my wife and son didn't sprint to the garage to see if i was alive. It was that loud. I would say similar to remington 22 floor nail system for attaching wall footer to concrete. I don't know if i want to do it again on other side.

Current state is i removed the 4 fasteners holding the shield on, and have both springs off and boot free.

Current questions: first, when i removed the hex bolt on shield, everything jumped back about a quarter inch. I couldn't get things lined back up to reinsert bolt if i wanted to. Is this normal? Second question. Everyone says to just swing tie rod down and use it like a wrench to remove itself. Do i remove that little strap strut and sway bar? They are obviously in the way. How remove? Finally, do i need to counter hold hex shaft while cranking on tie rod? I assume so, but i'm working under stands, so not the most comfortable or easy access.

Again thank you for the responses, and thanks in advance for advice on the tierod process.

Mark

[Fastdog911]

I use the metal bar that goes into a floor jack as a breaker bar.

[Monza_dh]

this is what I used and it worked lke a charm. Lets soak in PB then some heat and a PFH on a blunt chisel and you should be good. I just did a complete front end rebuild here:

Another suspension refresh powered by Pelican!

[KTL]

Originally Posted by Dauner

Current state is i removed the 4 fasteners holding the shield on, and have both springs off and boot free.

Current questions: first, when i removed the hex bolt on shield, everything jumped back about a quarter inch. I couldn't get things lined back up to reinsert bolt if i wanted to. Is this normal? Second question. Everyone says to just swing tie rod down and use it like a wrench to remove itself. Do i remove that little strap strut and sway bar? They are obviously in the way. How remove? Finally, do i need to counter hold hex shaft while cranking on tie rod? I assume so, but i'm working under stands, so not the most comfortable or easy access.

Again thank you for the responses, and thanks in advance for advice on the tierod process.

Mark

That shield can be a pain in the rear. The sway bar is fastened by the strap strut, which is held in place by the bolts you removed for the splash shield. It takes some patience to get them back in. Have to be careful not to cross-thread the bolts!

I would strongly recommend NOT removing the sway bar. Getting the sway bar out of the A-arms is pretty straightforward- pull real hard to get the end of the bar to come out of the rubber bushings. Getting it back in can be a real bear and you're better off removing an A-arm to get it back in.

You do need to counterhold the shaft that the tie rod threads into. That shaft is actually the steering rack rack. That's not a typo. The shaft the tie rod threads into is the actual toothed rack within the steering rack housing.

[Dauner]

OK, well... Thanks, but bummer. I torqued on it pretty hard for a pretty long time. I hope I didn't hootch the teeth. I did successfully get it out though. Packer game tonight, then back at it. One other concern I had was when the tie rod came out, the locknut had obviously moved. For length purposes, I'm going to assume it was nearly all of the way threaded on to tie rod. That's the way the other (drivers) side is, and there was only a portion of a thread that had environmental dirt on it. Rest was clean. Thanks again for the help and advice. Hoping to get it back out this fall, but winter is coming fast in Wisconsin... Mark

[KTL]

You can turn the steering with the wheels in the air to see how the rack feels. Being that it's probably not ever been regreased, it's probably pretty dry & noisy. If you're up for it, I highly recommend taking out the rack and inspecting, regreasing it. Not a hard job and makes a HUGE difference in improving the feel of the steering. The new 930 tie rods are great and really firm things up nice. Freshening the rack is a nice finishing touch.

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I found that trying to maintain the same length of tie rod, old vs. new, didn't even come close to making the alignment OK. The toe was WAY off. So just get the new rods close as you can to the old ones but don't make a big deal out of it. You need to align it regardless. If you know anybody that has any toe plates (or you can make your own) you can get it really close before you have it aligned. I actually do my own alignment with Longacre toe plates and they're precise enough to get my racecar nicely aligned.

"Sorry" the Bears came out the winner last night. That was a shock, having McCown be so capable! Injury bug is the worst i've ever seen in the NFL this season.