Should I buy a rebuilt or not?

[BKC]

I'm looking for a 911 sc. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why their motors are rebuilt. Some cars have 80k with a top end rebuild and some cars have 140k with no rebuild.

What causes one car to need a rebuild so early while another goes twice as long without one? Poor maintenance? Will they all need rebuilt sooner or later even if they are perfectly maintained? Would I be better off buying a rebuild or a average mile non-rebuild?

Thanks in advanced from a long time lurker, first time poster!

Brian

[Grady Clay]

Brian,

This discussion could be as easily be in ’94 about a rebuilt ’67. After some 37 years or more, why is this a discussion? Engines need to be rebuilt.

I have an SC with 140K miles and 31 years. I think it may have been rebuilt with Max Moritz 98 mm P&Cs. So what. I’m going to rebuild it again so I know it is new again. No big deal. Just part of ownership.

You can do the same. Build the engine as you want. This is part of the enjoyment of ownership.

Best,
Grady

[Peter Zimmermann]

Brian: I'm sure that if you look at the "invoices" for those "rebuilds" you will find that they were not rebuilt at all. You will find a parts list for quantity "x" Dilavar head studs, or a set of oil fed timing chain tensioners, or...'

Or, simply, the owner who had his 80K mile SC "rebuilt" was just ripped off. I've had the lower end apart on 200K mile virgin SCs, and the bearings, intermediate shaft, etc., were perfect. I've had the heads off of 140K mile virgin SCs, and the valve guides were perfect. My shop did countless tensioner upgrades, and we found maybe six timing chains that were stretched and couldn't be used. "Rebuilt" means many different things to many different people.

I once had the potential buyer of a long hood 911E ask me about the seller's ad in the L.A. Times. That ad stated, "Engine rebuilt by Red Line Service in Santa Monica." I said, "Uh, I don't think so." I pulled the file and found we had done nothing more than a couple of minor services. Check every invoice for every claim that involves an engine or trans "rebuild," or even a clutch replacement.

[Evans, Marv]

The old adage of buying the best car you can afford always applies. Like Grady says, engines need a rebuild sooner or later. Just look for the best car you can for the money you have to spend, and try to get as much in the way of maintenance records as you can.

[BKC]

Thanks for the replies. I will dig a little deeper into those maintenance records.

Uh, Pete, your response to my thread was your 911th post. Do they give out prizes for such feats?

[86 911 Targa]

Originally Posted by BKC

I'm looking for a 911 sc. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why their motors are rebuilt. Some cars have 80k with a top end rebuild and some cars have 140k with no rebuild.

What causes one car to need a rebuild so early while another goes twice as long without one? Poor maintenance? Will they all need rebuilt sooner or later even if they are perfectly maintained? Would I be better off buying a rebuild or a average mile non-rebuild?

Thanks in advanced from a long time lurker, first time poster!

Brian

Brian,

We have been 911 owners since the 70's.

It all comes down to maintenance, type of usage, and most importantly, operating temperatures.

High temps is what really kills 911 motors.

Our '86 (original owner) has 104K miles W/O any engine rebuild of any type,
first clutch replacement @ 102K miles.

Dry motor, burns 1QT/1K miles, 24-25 mpg (freeway), runs like a clock.

We took care of the oil temp(s) immediately after purchase with the installation of an oil cooler fan with a 200F temp sensor.

I don't think that we have ever seen temps over 210-220.

Hope this helps to answer your question.

Here's a pic of ours.

Good luck,

Gerry

]

[Aurel]

The main upgrades to look for on a 911SC motor are stainless steel head studs and carrera tensioners. Broken head studs are the reason for early top-end rebuilds, and are caused by corrosion rather than mileage. I would prefer a motor with those upgrades to a non rebuilt engine, because you know you will have to do it down the road. With original divilar headstuds, even if the engine is running well, it is a crapshot because on a 30+ year old car, they can break anytime if they are not already broken.

[James Brown]

Rebulding a porsche engine is like a aircraft engine, most major engine parts are replaceble/rebuldible without doing the whole engine. More like a tractor than a Ford.

[mickey356]

Peter,
Is Red Line your place? My car used to get serviced there back in its earlier life, when it was a west coast car. Now, many years later, it's all the way over here on the east coast. Small world.

Sorry for the hijack.

[ghost1001]

here is the BEST thread I have found on rebuilds....steve, henry, grady all chime in....enjoy

What is a 'rebuilt engine'

[porschenut]

My opinion is that I would be delighted to buy a car with a rebuilt engine, provided that the rebuild is well documented and was done by someone whose skills I trust. This could be an owner with well-known skills or a professional builder with a good reputation.

If it was done by a previous owner who I didn't know, but was a desirable car otherwise, then I would factor the cost of another rebuild into my offer.

[BKC]

Again, thanks for the replies.

The 82 sc I'm looking at has had all of the sc issues resolved. In fact, it is the car that was used for some of the projects in the "101 projects for your 911" book. It has about 30k on a "rebuild" that was done at 140k. It also has SSI's (which I'm still confused as to their importance) as well as a Carrera front end oil cooler. I went to see it and it appears to be in great mechanical condition with no smoking and no oil or gas smells from the engine bay. Cosmetically it needs work but it would really be a nice DD.

I thought the head stud issue was a heat expansion problem.

[BKC]

That's a beautiful Targa, Gerry!

[naparsei]

SSIs are the same as the factory heat exchangers, except they are stainless steel. They run about $1000. The OEM H/E rust over time, and exhaust can then leak from the "header" part to the cabin heater piping. SSIs are basically a "replace it right once" upgrade. Due to their longevity, SSIs typically retain their value and most long term 911 owners eventually get there.

[86 911 Targa]

Originally Posted by BKC

That's a beautiful Targa, Gerry!

Thanks,

A well maintained 3.2 under 200K miles should not need an engine rebuild.

There are ongoing Carrera examples with 200K+ miles that have never been rebuilt.

Good luck on your final choice.

Gerry

You may pm me.

[deathpunk dan]

Originally Posted by BKC

I thought the head stud issue was a heat expansion problem.

On 2.7 liter cars, head stud issue was related to thermal expansion. The studs would pull through the case. On 3.0 liter cars, it seems like most are exhaust side and broken, not pulled. The material used for the head studs becomes brittle over many heat cycles.

I know what car you are referring to. I've seen it listed for sale. Tough to beat a car that was used for one of the single best 911 DIY resources...

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by naparsei

SSIs are the same as the factory heat exchangers, except they are stainless steel. They run about $1000. The OEM H/E rust over time, and exhaust can then leak from the "header" part to the cabin heater piping. SSIs are basically a "replace it right once" upgrade. Due to their longevity, SSIs typically retain their value and most long term 911 owners eventually get there.

On an '82 911sc SSI's can also be a "backdate" added for better performance.

[BKC]

I don't really want to go here but...

When I read through the above referenced thread regarding engine rebuilds, one poster, in referring to a "nightmare" rebuild by a DIY said, "This mechanic was actually consulted on proper engine building techniques by our host for his 911 engine rebuilding book.".

What does that mean and does it shed poor light on the car I'm looking at?

[Peter Zimmermann]

Originally Posted by BKC

Thanks for the replies. I will dig a little deeper into those maintenance records.

Uh, Pete, your response to my thread was your 911th post. Do they give out prizes for such feats?

LOL! I completely missed that, and will be waiting by the mailbox for any prizes...

Originally Posted by mickey356

Peter,
Is Red Line your place? My car used to get serviced there back in its earlier life, when it was a west coast car. Now, many years later, it's all the way over here on the east coast. Small world.

Yes, sir, Red Line was my shop until Marc Bixen bought the business in 1999. Today the shop is located in Long Beach, and Red Line is in its 35th year!

Originally Posted by BKC

Again, thanks for the replies.

The 82 sc I'm looking at has had all of the sc issues resolved. In fact, it is the car that was used for some of the projects in the "101 projects for your 911" book. It has about 30k on a "rebuild" that was done at 140k. It also has SSI's (which I'm still confused as to their importance) as well as a Carrera front end oil cooler. I went to see it and it appears to be in great mechanical condition with no smoking and no oil or gas smells from the engine bay. Cosmetically it needs work but it would really be a nice DD.

I thought the head stud issue was a heat expansion problem.

Please remember that the car, with SSIs, is illegal in some states (like CA) because it will not pass bi-annual smog testing. The car should include a complete SC exhaust with catalytic converter, oxygen sensor, heat exchangers and muffler if your intent is to use the car in a state that does emission testing.

[ghost1001]

Originally Posted by BKC

I don't really want to go here but...

When I read through the above referenced thread regarding engine rebuilds, one poster, in referring to a "nightmare" rebuild by a DIY said, "This mechanic was actually consulted on proper engine building techniques by our host for his 911 engine rebuilding book.".

What does that mean and does it shed poor light on the car I'm looking at?

This is sort of the problem with anything "rebuilt"....In my opinion I would only want a engine rebuild from a well known shop, with specific documentation as to what was actually done. I would not want to buy a DYI project.....I trust my own DIY to a certain extent but not for an engine. Then again nothing mystical about it….I would do it myself if I had the time and desire, with the help of Waynes book of course, which I have read.

The thread I posted clearly spells out many pitfalls and the use of various terms and what they can mean....all very subjective, particularly in our DIY/Pelican community.

The simple fact is that all rebuilds are not created equal….know what you are buying!!

These engines are expensive to rebuild right and experience is worth paying for in this case....for me anyway.

Kevin