Can a 911 be made to handle as well as a Spec Miata?

[Kemo]

I've been to a few DE's now and made some very interesting observations... Spec Miatas seem to do a better job at the track than 911s (especially my 911) in the tight curves. Obviously, the Miatas are low on power but man do they handle well. I also understand that alot depends on the driver, and Im not that great of a driver.

But given the same driver skill, can a 911 be built to handle as well as a Spec Miata?

[JerryL]

You are kidding right??

Regards

[Joe Bob]

Getta 914.....

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by jerryl

you are kidding right??

+1

[Dantilla]

I race a 944, whose track performance is very similar to the Miatas.

Both the Miata and 944 are very easy cars to drive. A novice can jump in and feel like Mario Andretti.

The 911 is quite different. A novice 911 driver will be frustrated until learning how to use the 911's idiosyncrasies to his/her advantage. After that, nothing touches the 911 on the track.

Keep driving!

[Trackrash]

OK. What about a 911 vs a Boxter? At a recent DE I noticed that a couple of Boxters I followed both were noticeably quicker through the tight turns.

OK, gurus is this the way it is? Are our torsion sprung 911s just going to be inferior in handling to the newer cars?

Say it's not so.

[AirKuhl]

I tracked a Miata and a 993 at Laguna Seca for several years. In the Miata you almost keep it floored the whole way around, the handing in the corners is wonderful and forgiving, although it has basically no power. In the 993, you had to drive the car at all times. They are both tons of fun but in different ways. A Spec Miata does 1:46's at LS. A stock 993 does 1:49's. A modified 993 can do 1:41's. Sorry, no NA torsion bar 911 data as I've never tracked one. I'd guess 1:5x.x mostly stock but can get into the 1:3x.x's heavily modded.

[tobluforu]

My old 911 is/was pretty well prepared for auto-x at one time, and I consider myself a pretty good driver, but doesn't everyone? My brother had a Miata that was pretty well setup (i'm a better driver than he was) and there was no way in hell I could keep up with that damn car at times. Super frustrating. Before that, he had an older crx and that car rode like it was on rails at times.

[grudk]

From what I've seen, a spec miata can outrun a normally-aspirated torsion bar 911 3.0/3.2 in stock or lightly-modified form on a tight track. With 'prepared' class cars and up, the 911 should take the flag

[Flieger]

I think an old 911 can be just as fast around twisites as a Spec Miata- if it has monoball bearings everywhere, is lighter, has stiffer torsion bars, better dampers, and sticky tires. At which point it is not so much an 'old 911'. How does a stock Miata compare to a Spec Miata?

The other thing is that even though the 911 can be as fast through the turns, the driver of the 911 will be working much harder

Those Honda S2000 are what gets me. They seem to keep up so easily. Not necessarily pass, but keep up- like Jeremy Clarkson in the Mistu Evo VIII chasing the Lamborghini Murcielago.

[crikett]

Can't claim to be an expert with the 911 at the track, and even less so with the Miata... but I'll throw out my observations from my limited experience.

Given a similar level of prep, the Miata and later torsion bar 911s (SC and 3.2L) are really similar. Overall I'd expect that the 911 would be just a little faster... but over a field of drivers, you'd probably find a much wider range in the 911s than the Miata (more of that "the Miata is easier to drive").

The Miata is better balanced and the chassis much more rigid, and the suspension wasn't designed in the early 1960s. These are big advantages for the Miata. The 911 has more power and is much more demanding on the driver. I think the brakes on the 911 are better as well, but I'd call it a toss up as the Miata's strengths seem to allow it to get really deep into corners and turn in sooner.

The key to having a 911 handles like a spec Miata is my earlier statement about similar level of prep... a spec Miata is a race car. Admittedly one that still retains many stock elements to help save on cost, but it is a race car and race cars tend to go really well in the turns. Taking a 911 and going with ARBs, monoballs, bigger torsion bars, and similar prep that goes into that spec Miata should yeild a car that is potentially a little faster than the Miata (though it can be a little depressing just how fast those Miatas are given how little power they have!).

[aston@ultrasw.c]

I had a student in a Cayman and he rode in my 911, 3.2 w/Elephant goodies.

He observed, "My car may be faster but you are having much more fun!"

[5String43]

Re torsion bars vs coils - why this distinction in this thread? They both do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. They're both cylindrical steel used as a springing medium. The only difference is that one is straight and one is coiled. What am I missing here?

[Superman]

Which is faster, a Miata or a classic 911? It depends.

[5:04]

I just sold a 200whp Miata that I was building for RTA to pick up my "warmed up" 911.

My first impressions were that the 911 handled very well, it just didn't seem like it was handling well. I'd have to actually look and see how fast I was going since it felt so on edge and composed (makes no sense I know) I didn't feel like I was going that fast. The Miata always felt fast

The Miata was a car that anyone could drive fast. The trans is easy to use, with the turbo and a weight of around 2100lb wet it was very quick in a straight line and I had 225 A048's square. BC racing coilovers with a range of other goodies. It was a car that could be driven very easily very quickly. I never got the chance to take it out to the track since I sold it right after building it due to the 911 bug biting, but the average Miata of that build will be about 3-4 seconds faster than a Spec Miata.

The MAJOR short coming of the Miata is that any track with any sort of straight kills it. You may be faster than every car in the corner but "races are won in the straights". My current 911 would blow the doors off of a spec Miata in the straights and probably handle closely if not as well while still keeping up with my turbo Miata and probably on par for times.

Also the Miata made everyone feel like they were Ayrton Senna. My experience with the 911 is that unless you get either 60-70% or 100% out of it depending on your driving skill.

I got back into a Miata last Sunday at a bmwcca Auto-x I was instructing, and that reminded me that in Auto-X the Miata is king.

[Kemo]

maybe what I am witnessing is the ability for people to come up to speed really quick in a Miata, which is easier to drive, while im still learning how to get my 911 around the track without spinning out. Quite humbling IMHO, and a bit frustrating.

[JeremyD]

Just more time behind the wheel Kemo - and you'll start being able to use the 911's disadvantages to your advantage.

Driven well, you should be able to get the 911 rotated and on the power much earlier than a Miata through a corner.

But as supe says - it depends - on the level of driver, the level of car prep, the distance between the corners...

[AirKuhl]

Originally Posted by Flieger

I think an old 911 can be just as fast around twisites as a Spec Miata- if it has monoball bearings everywhere, is lighter, has stiffer torsion bars, better dampers, and sticky tires. At which point it is not so much an 'old 911'. How does a stock Miata compare to a Spec Miata?

Not much difference. The engine is basically stock although it can be blueprinted. 1.8l cars must have an intake restrictor plate. Stock exhaust except cat can be removed. Shocks can be updated to a specific aftermarket one but no geometry changes. dot-r tires. Safety gear. Minimum weights enforced with ballast as needed. That's pretty much it.

[Trackrash]

Re torsion bars vs coils - why this distinction in this thread? They both do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. They're both cylindrical steel used as a springing medium. The only difference is that one is straight and one is coiled. What am I missing here?

It's the fact that when Porsche went to coil overs they modernized their suspensions. Less camber and toe change during cornering.

[jwakil]

One thing all those other non-porsches mentioned can't do is give three of your friends a ride while auto-xing. The other thing is you are comparing 1970s-80s technology to 2000s. A third thing is you can't compare different drivers in Auto-X. A good driver with any kind of car will beat a lousy driver with the best car.