Can a 911 be made to handle as well as a Spec Miata?

[Superman]

jwakil is absolutely correct. A talented driver in a pickup truck can beat a lot of Miatas.

Coils can be progressive. Torsion bars cannot. Modern suspensions have 3....maybe four pickup points. Far more effective than older 911s. Porsche went as far and did as much with those older suspension setups as anyone could, but it's still a bad design compared to modern suspensions. Polishing a turd. You get a really shiny turd, but it's still a turd.

Spec Miatas are 2100 lbs? Sheesh! Build a 2100-lb 911, and see what happens. As Dan says, once a guy knows how to drive a 911, they will clobber a Miata. Go Dan, go!

Oh, and for the guy who thinks Miatas are AX bullies.......I guess you need to need to see some 914s driven properly. We can accommodate you at our PNWR AX's.

[racerfink]

Just to clear up a little bit of info on here about Spec Miatas.

My 1990 is a 1.6L making 112hp at the rear wheels. It's got 197k on the odometer. The original motor was in it for the first two years I raced it, but started showing signs of "Short-nose crank syndrome" common in '90's. The fastest I've gone around Sebring is a 2:40.0. The track record is 2:36.1. Most National level cars run about 120hp at the wheels for 1.6L's, and 130hp at the wheels for 1.8L's (with air inlet restrictors). I mostly finish in the top ten at SCCA regional events that avg. 35 cars in SM. It weighs 2275lbs. with driver, and we have to run on Toyo RA-1's (205-50-15), usually shaved down to 4/32nds.

the NA Miata's ('90 to '97) have very little in the way of torsional rigidity. The hardtop and rollcage do A LOT to change that. My '90 street car felt like the front end and back end rotated seperately around the transmission tunnel until I got a tower brace for the seat belt towers.

The suspension is mandated by MazdaSpeed. It consists of Bilstein shocks that are stock on the '99 Miata sport package, with Eibach springs rated at 700lbs front and 325lbs. rear. The sway bars are Eibach pieces as well. We do run a collared shock body that we can change the spring pre-load with.

While you will be closer to a top time the first time you get in a Spec Miata vs. the first time you step into a 911, they aren't exactly easy to get great times out of, especially if you run the 1.6L. The 1.8L's have more torque, by far, and are a little easier to drive. The biggest problem people have the first time they try one out from another type of car is, they ALWAYS miss the 2-3 upshift, and get fifth instead. If you try to man-handle them, you'll lose time.

[racer]

Of course a 911 can be made to handle better.. but it will cost nearly as much as a spec miata

[CMDR Perry]

To repeat essentially what others have said you would have to spend a lot of cash to make a 911 work as well in the corners. I have Autocrossed my SC locally for almost 5 years. The car is well prepared and somedays I flog the hell out of it but it is still 3 seconds behind modern Japanese cars on a 60 second course.

The 911 SC just has too many age related flaws; Torsion bars, 915 gearbox, CIS, etc. The Miata is front mid-engined and copied the Lotus Elan backbone chassis. There are literally dozens of them at every event up here and they all go like stink into 3rd gear. Look at Dfinks car now for sale, that thing is loaded for bear and he has decided he cannot compete in X Prepared on the National level.

If you want a car that is easy to drive fast then a mid engined car is the only way to go. This is one reason why 914's always beat up on the 911's at the Parade.

But If you want a lifetime challenge get a 911 for sporting events.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by 5:04

I got back into a Miata last Sunday at a bmwcca Auto-x I was instructing, and that reminded me that in Auto-X the Miata is king.

[Scooter]

You guys do understand that there is a HUGE difference between DE (track) and AX....right?

[Joe Bob]

Originally Posted by Scooter

You guys do understand that there is a HUGE difference between DE (track) and AX....right?

Yeah, one is racing......

[skinnerd]

A lot of what makes a Miata so fast in the corners of a race track and at autocrossing is physics.
Or more clearly....lack of weight.
Most 911's are tanks compared to Miatas.
Stock Miatas weigh considerably less than a stock 911.

On a race track a reasonably powered 911 should smoke a Miata down the straights.
It's in the corners where the Miata advantage lies.
Light weight, neutral handling, a modern suspension.....all add up to a car that is easy to drive.
Anyone can jump in a Miata and drive fairly quickly.

The same cannot be said for a rear engine (heavy) 911.
However, that is what makes a 911 so satisfying to drive....it does take a little skill to drive one.
Once weight transfer is understood and mastered, there is not a funner car to drive than a 911 I think.

Don't be too down on your 911.
With a few suspension upgrades, the handling of a 911 can be brought up to a level near that of a much lighter Miata.
The good thing is that you are driving a 911, and not a Miata in the end.
The 911 will always look better, sound better, etc, etc than a Miata.
JMHO

[BGCarrera32]

It depends a lot on the track. Take a spec Miata up to BIR in Minnesota where the main straight is almost a mile long and turns 1 and 2 are 110+ mph, and a Miata will be quickly outgunned.

[smokintr6]

I'm going to throw my vote in with the "more seat time" crowd.

My torsion bar car "out handles" my stock '99 miata. Now whether it develops more mechanical grip, I dunno. But it transitions with the throttle in ways my miata could never hope to accomplish. The only suspension mods on the 911 are stiffer torsion bars and Koni shocks... and it has some weight out of it (2750 full fuel).

[5:04]

I still stand by it despite someone elses personal experience or two. I've seen Miata's in all trims wreck shop at Auto-x's, and IMO the Miata is one of the best Auto-x cars you can buy. Light weight, amazing suspension, easy and cheap to modify, fun!

Don't me wrong though, I'm saying this applies specifically to Auto-x. Although like every car there are exceptions the 911 should easily out run a Miata like for like. And when I say like for like I mean modified to similar trims and with equal drivers.

I also sold the Miata and bought the 911 for performance reasons too. Although the Miata is one hell of a car it is a limited chassis. Why do you think you don't see many major time attack Miata's. There are a few but for them it's all based on what track they're on rather than being able to be consistently dominant. I got rid of mine since I don't really care for Auto-x and on a road course the 911 is a better choice and more fun. Again this doesn't mean Miata's make bad road course cars since I personally know 3 that run sub 2 minutes at Buttonwillow #13.

Originally Posted by Flieger

He had the second fastest time of the day IIRC lol

Originally Posted by Scooter

You guys do understand that there is a HUGE difference between DE (track) and AX....right?

I mentioned both


And finally, no Miata will ever look as good as a 911

[Flieger]

I can't figure out how that air dam stayed on the rear deck with those little tab mounts. I sure does look home-made. He did not even seal the bottom of the spoiler thing to the rear deck.

[tobluforu]

But... at the end of the day I will take my 911 over a miata anyday. Even though my brothers Miata was tricked out, when I borrowed his car for week my friends gave me the biggest ration of ****!

[DanielDudley]

Very few people run 911s at SCCA national events. You will see at least 50 Miatas. They have double A wishbones front and rear, coilovers front and rear, and 50/50 weight distribution. You have more driving options in a Miata, and sure they are easier to drive. The fact that they are inexpensive doesn't make them cheap.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about 911s here is that they are totally geared wrong for a tight track. You will not have any power at 25 MPH in second in a slow corner, so all that fantastic grip is really not exploitable. If you gear a 911 like a Miata, it is going to feel and do much better on a tight course. Even so, if you want to be competitive, you need to pick the right tool for the job. But then you are going to be running against the very best drivers, some with many years of experience. The top five guys are all going to be within a half a second of each other.

Once I got past the humility of not having the best car or being the best driver, I started getting into the fun of driving again, and the challenge of being a better driver. Practicing car control, going fast, having fun. Doing my personal best, and getting the best out of my car isn't going to happen if I'm not having fun.

Try to have fun and play with the car. If someone offers to ride along, say yes. If someone offers you a drive, say yes please. I can always tell when I am having a good day, because of the stupid grin.

[GrantG]

My 73 911 (heavily modified) passes Spec Miatas on the straights and corners very easily (as well as some other Very expensive hardware)...

[at7driver]

as mentioned earlier the miata may be quicker, I had a 1994 I autocrossed and I drove it way harder than any of my 911's. The 911's however were much more satisfying to drive.

Similar to a 916 Ducati and a newer R1 (or take your pick of current liter bikes from Japan).. the Japanese bikes are generally faster than the 916's but you can't park them in your living room and drool over them like you can the 916..

There is something about driving the 911's that you can't get from any other car. The 911's are, well they are Porsche 911's. nuff said.

[Kemo]

DanielDudley brings up a good point about the gearing. In the really tight sections of the track, I seem to have ZERO pickup where the SMs just pull right along. Like they are a couple of thousand more RPMs up there. Im basing alot of what im talking about here from driving the L1 track at Driveway Austin. Its a super tight track with the car constantly loaded down. Perhaps I should start to experiment going to lower gear in the tight sections to see if I can get the pickup and go. I also agree that more seat time is always helpful...I guess we can always revisit this topic a year from now and see how I feel then

[911st]

Flieger,

This is what I was talking about as to camber curve and caster on another thread. On a strictly race car we want these to be more stable to under different conditions (banked / off camber, short long turn...) we still have the tires at there best angle to the track.

Originally Posted by Trackrash

It's the fact that when Porsche went to coil overs they modernized their suspensions. Less camber and toe change during cornering.

---

I suspect 911's need a lot more rear tire to come close to matching the potential of a a miata in rear tire to weight.

Assuming a 2000lb Miata with 205/s at 50/50 distribution. That is 1000lbs front and 1000lbs back.

Assume a 911 at 2500 lbs with 40/60 distribution. That is 1000 front and 1500 rear.

To equal the grip of the miata we would need something like 205's front and 300's rear.

For fun lets look at a GT#-RS. I would think with a driver they would come in at about 3300lbs, have close to 40/50 distribution. Thus have about 1320 lbs front and 1980 rear.

It would need about 245's front and 405's rear. They run 245's and 325's.

This is all very simplistic but it looks like a Miata with 205's might even have more tire than even a GT3

[Flieger]

You want camber recovery. If you have no roll that means no camber change. If you have lots of roll that means lots of camber change.

The complicating factor is how soft the suspension is because the camber recovery depends on body roll but the total roll of the wheel/tire assemblies can only happen after the body has rolled so there will be pre-mature camber recovery on a softly sprung car. However, if the car is too stiff there will be insufficient body roll to cause the needed camber recovery in steady-state turns.

As is the case so often, the softer car will have more total grip available in a steady state turn but the stiffer car will have the advantage in quick transitions.

[burgermeister]

What's camber recovery? Or do you mean camber compensation, ie the amount of camber change you get from x degrees of roll?