uh... no , but the one piece versions are dang heavy compared to fuchs, Z-fuchs, or 3 piece. We also have them in standard 5 hole bolt on
one month max from time of order

Bravo

Yes, you are confused. It is true most of us pre-paid our orders--in full--up front. That was when there was no marketable wheel, just prototypes. We were told it would be a awhile for the product to come to market. There was no promised delivery date. However, we also paid for the product at a substantial discount. To a certain degree, our money was "seed money" to help get the project going. Along the way, as in any project, there are unexpected hiccups. When those happened Jeff (and now Zuffenhaus) took the time to make the product the right way--not the quick way. I'm sure it cost them time, aggravation, and money to do so. But I am a satisfied customer for that.

No I am not confused at all that was then and was expected if I had continued to deal with Jeff I would have done the same. Now is different and it is not considered pre-production nor a prototype he is taking orders and still requiring full payment in advance apparently.

gsmith: Your reading comprehension stinks and you don't even know it. You've had a beef with this product for awhile, as past threads will show. And you don't even have a dog in the race. Unlike a lot of us who post on these types of threads.

I offered a heartfelt thanks to Mr. Alton in posts #36 & 56, for the integrity he put into his effort at making this product. Why do you have to twist it into a statement suggesting shady business practices at Zuffenhaus? Why all the negativity?

And in the very next post you say:

Which I greatly appreciate. This project caused a lot of intersting problems for me..... I am glad that I did the project, but would need to seek professional help if I considered doing something the same in the future.... :) The good news is, I am almost caught up on my sleep loss!!!

Why do you have to slam me I did have a dog in this race until Jeff sold the product, THAT is my beef with zuffenhaus not this product and that makes me not allowed to post on this thread how? Our opinions on this are of a satisfied customer (you) and a dissatisfied individual (me) that had been talking to Jeff since shortly after he started the work on these and was going to buy in until he sold the rights. Noah my reading comprehension is just fine and my comments where not leveled at Jeff at all. I am ticked because Jeff did design a quality product and in my opinion the way it was put to market was flawed. So by the reasoning you pointed out it is you that have a reading comp. problem as my issue in every post has been with Keith specifically and not with the wheel. Look I don't want to make this an issue between you and me I don't even know you, but if you are saying that I don't have a right to have an opinion on a subject that you have no idea what my involvement was then you have the wrong idea of what this forum is all about. I don't want this to be a fight between us I made the point I wanted to that in all the work I have done to my car none of the vendors have required me to pay in full when I placed the order they have taken my info and only charged me after they have they have provided the product as is customary practice for most reputable businesses. My issues in other threads have been about keith and his attitude with me personally he says he hasn't even talked to me but sure knows what the particulars are when he comments thats a little strange don't you think? I am ticked because I wanted these wheels real bad and I had a price from Jeff as Jeff will testify or maybe not as that was a long time ago and he may not remember and thats ok and less than a week before I was ready to pull the trigger the rights were sold to zuff and the price went way up beyond what I could justify for a wheel that had no product history. So Noah if you want to go and slam me and belittle me because I have an opinion from the other side of the fence then you do go ahead I'll let you I am not mad at you and I only posted on this thread because I would like to see Jeff take this product back because it will be lost when zuff goes belly up and they will you can see it coming. So I made my point I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you I would like us to be friends on here and be able to exchange ideas and opinions as well if that is not possible then that is ok too. You have a good day. SmileWavy

Jeff I would like to offer my deepest apologies if you thought in anyway I was slamming you or mad at you in any way except the fact that you sold the wheels to zuffenhaus I think you came up with a fantastic wheel that in your original idea was going to be both high quality and affordable. You nailed the high quality dead on from what I can read on here, the affordablity is somewhat off now. When I was shopping for wheels I got some quotes from wheel enhancement on Fiske, Kinesis, and BBS and then your wheels come up on here and I start talking to you or actually I was already talking to you about some Kodiaks and I was sold on the fuch replicas but was late getting the funds so I missed out and when I got the quote from zuff and it was as high as wheel enhancement's quotes for wheels that had much product history and background that in my opinion didn't deserve the price they command either I was put off to say the least and you put an arrogant attitude on top of that. I just wanted to say sorry I hope I didn't offend you in anyway. I have a nice set of Kinesis wheels now that are absolutely flawless in every way but still wish I had your wheels to put on my car but I know that will never happen.

Jeff,

What prevents any wheel manufacturer from copying your design and selling the wheel?

Regards, Dave

Guys, guys....everyone is saying the same thing - no need to argue.

Jeff Alton = good quality product that took a bit of time to develop and get out there as any good custom wheel does while making good on his word on all counts. Many happy people from the original group that was offered and sold wheels by Alton.

Zuffenhaus = big confusion as to 1 year wait times, some people feel taken advantage of.

The important thing is to inform, not fight. No need for this type of thing to get nasty :)

I don't think there's anything that would prevent this, just the same way that people copy the Fuchs design. Possibly...

I'm not defending Keith and Zuff as I think they have some real issues (like communication and being accurate about wait times). As I understand it, there are some major manufacturing complications that even if they went very smoothly would take significant time to actually machine the wheels. Then there's finishing, assembling, shipping... Perhaps they have a lot of customers that want a set. In that case, I see no reason they couldn't just do the math and say, "Two weeks for machining, a week to ship to us, a month to finish, a week to assemble and test, and another to ship to you, then add on a bit for fudge factor. You're fifth on the list, so you can expect them in July..." One would think that by now, they would have a better handle on exactly how long it will take to build your set.

They are very nice wheels, however, and I am very happy with mine.

And there are a lot of us out here who are grateful that you put so much time, effort and even your own personal $$ into this project!

And somehow I don't think you'll get a chance to catch up on your sleep until after your car runs at the Rolex 24 hour. Good luck!

x1000!

I hope these wheels continue to get made, at the current quality level, with more realistic wait times.

What I don't want to see happen is these wheels turning into such a hassle that the design owners say 'f' it.

Kevin,

My thought was: What if a real manufacturer were to pickup the Fuch design and deliver on the many orders they would receive????

I'm hoping that a "real" manufacturer will step up.

Regards, Dave

[QUOTE=175K911;5783696]And there are a lot of us out here who are grateful that you put so much time, effort and even your own personal $$ into this project!
QUOTE]

My feelings exactly. My service from Mr Alton was honest and fair...the product really is unique and I can't imagine someone not being happy by the time it is on the car. I actually wondered how long I waited for my wheels to be built from payment....paid end of November 2008, shipped February (+ 2m at Weidman's). Now coming up on 2 years and they look great (except for a giant ding from road metal road debris)

A "real" manufacturer is making these wheels. They produce some very well known and respected wheels. As I understand it, one of the challenges is that it takes about 8 hours to machine each center, then a lot of time to custom make the outer rim shells, then bolt it all together. So probably about a week for each set! Very labor intensive to get the correct, accurate look. I personally don't think it's a problem with the manufacturer themselves, they put out a lot of 3 piece wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the way Zuff is selling these wheels with no communications on timing updates. But these wheels are not cast in China at the rate of dozens a day or week. They are truly a custom set of wheels. When I bought that first set, I knew that I shelled out my money while they were still under development and it would take some time to be produced. But that was what, 2 years ago since I started my "post them as you get them" thread? Surely Zuff should have developed a better plan to market these wheels since then.

And yes, I still love these wheels.

Nothing really, if that is how someone wanted to do business, they could do it. It is done all the time, there are cast replicas of other wheels out there right now, even aftermarket ones like the HRE P40.

But, they woud be faced with the same obstacles. I honestly can't remember off the top of my head the total time that gets put into each center to machine the front side, back side, blend, mask for finishing, send out for finishing etc then assemble a finished wheel, but I do know it is at least double, and maybe triple of what a simlar, far less complicated to machine three piece wheel takes.

Then they have to develop a rim shell with the correct profiles, in all of the desired widths. You don't get this correct on the first try, or second but maybe the 10th, for each width.... That is if the rim shell profile is important to people. The feedback I got at the time was that it was important. However, if not, a standard off the shelf rim shell could be used.

But, yes, it could be copied.


gsmith660,

NO need to apologise to me, never took any offense to what you said. Never got the sense you were upset with me.


Like I said, I am glad I tackled the project, but not so sure I would do it again. It was very interesting, learned more than I wanted to and it was expensive, and not just in dollars and cents. But I made the descision to do it, so it is what it is, so to speak.

Zuffenhaus knows they have a very marketable product, I am sure. The delays are not all related to them. I feel like I know them fairly well, met them in person a number of times despite living on the other coast of a different country. Never got the sense, ever, that they were out to screw anyone. They are enthusiasts just like the rest of us, and I am sure you all would enjoy a beer and trading stories with them. I am sure the delivery will improve in the future.

I honeslty do not know where production stands on these right now. I am out at the manufacturing location fairly regularly as my company buys two brands of wheels they produce often. But I purposely avoid asking about or looking into how the fuch wheel thing is going.....

I really like the product, and yes, I am biased. :) I wish 100 or more sets were sold every year, as I am sure Zuffenhaus and the manufacturer does as well. I think that market exists.

I also want to thank again the original customers who stood up and bought the product when it was a prototype only. There was 5 originals, you know who you are, and then a large number of folks that also bought IIRC before production began or just as it was beginning. If these people, many of which have posted in this thread, never did that, the production would have stopped at a few prototypes. This wheel would not have been available without the support of those people. Trust, patience and understanding were displayed by all of them, which is not that common when one considers the current economy, distance and the fact that most of the exchange of information took place on-line. Not that these folks did not feel frustrated, as I am sure they did, but they stuck with it. I told my significant other almost daily during this process, that these folks were the best customers a company could ever ask for, actually better.

I have been lucky enough to meet a few of them over the last few years as well which I enjoyed. Some I keep in contact with fairly regularly and consider them to be good friends. I hope to meet a few more in Daytona at the end of the month as well.

Ok, enough typing from me....

Thanks for that Jeff.

I apologize for being so late to the table - as I mentioned recently we’ve moved into a new location and I’ve had very little time to visit Pelican during the past months due to the transition and up-fit activities.

I’d like to clear up a few points that are in this thread, which might actually help clarify some items which may be affecting the perceptions voiced here.

In regards to development of this product – Zuffenhaus Products was, has been, and is significantly involved with the development process.

I personally have had a voice (among others) in the outer rim shell transition to a “fuchs-like” appearance from a industry-standard horizontal lip, early run hardware revisions and specification, wheel center finishes and the investigation of processes, and inner barrel flange and profile shaping to maximize radial brake clearance and fastener contact area.

Development and refinement continues to this day, as a new product like this presents its own learning curve, and its sales trends determine ongoing product revisions – in this case, sizing and finishes, primarily.

Many of these developmental steps occurred while Jeff was the spokesman/representative for the product. His role as such continued well into his partnership with Zuffenhaus Products, and was passed to me well before he moved on to focus on other things.

In addition to the role of spokesman/representative, I also personally inspect and assemble every wheel that Zuffenhaus Products sells. I coordinate the Weidman finishing work and have handled most of the shipping and receiving to this point. I interact with the majority of our clients, and if you read threads like these, you already know that I take the brunt of the frustration for long delivery times.

I do these things in addition to and conjunction with being involved in ongoing development of this product, sales of other products, and my obligations as fabricator and manager of our primary business.

I present this only to counteract the impression that Zuffenhaus Products is engaged in volume retail (such as Fikse, BBS, HRE, or CCW) or is a reseller of a pre-developed, established product, and to counteract the possible impression that whole of my activities is that of a clerk for this product (in which case, I could totally identify with the idea that I were negligent in my duties.)

Zuffenhaus Products purchased total and exclusive rights to the product from Jeff in November of 2009, which, if you remember correctly was after retail pricing increased to reflect real-world costs associated with producing and delivering this product.

It is internet history now that the prototype orders were sold for a price which is significantly under actual manufacturing costs, and as such the initial offering should not be considered a reflection of raw product costs or used as a formula to speculate our “quick buck” margins. Jeff, the manufacturer, and I can all attest to this.

Pricing was increased to maintain sustainability in light of actual manufacturing costs, development costs and the very real costs of shipping, finishing, and marketing the product. Our intention is to be able to continue to offer this product into the future, and pricing must be appropriate to do so.

As to other manufacturers copying the design and producing the product, Intellectual Property laws, design rights and ownership, the US legal system, the complexity of manufacturing and the small volume & margins preclude other manufacturers from doing so.

Up-front billing has been the result of this being a custom product that uses proprietary components (aside from the aerospace grade ARP fasteners), and must be paid for, by Zuffenhaus Products, at time of order. The manufacturer must acquire raw materials in bulk and work with subs in the industry to perform all of the post-forging and machining processes (primarily heat treating and anodizing), and so it goes from there.

However, it is well known that we have been and are working toward an in-house inventory model for this product – and that component inventory also requires payment up-front, at time of order.

In regard to realistic delivery times – when wheels are ordered, or inquiries made before orders are placed, we quote average delivery times. We have been doing so for a year at this point. We do this because we have had order fulfillment from our manufacturer as quick as 2 ½ weeks and as long as over a year depending on component sizing and a variety of other factors (including the economy and resulting availability of raw materials.)

Currently we have four outstanding orders and have delivered over 70 sets of wheels since December 3, 2008. One of those four would have been fulfilled 11 months ago aside from the unusual omission of one wheel from the manufacturing run of that size – an error not encountered before or since, but another validation of the move to in-house component inventory.

As to our marketing plan, I disagree that we have a flawed one. In addition to bringing this product to market, we’ve continued to develop and improve it, resisted price increases when possible, been completely up-front and transparent with our clients and have continued to fill orders while building an internal inventory to improve delivery times in the future. We have done all of these things over the span of only two years (one year if you consider product ownership.)

We work with quality North American tradesmen, and offer a light, strong, beautiful and competitively priced product to a limited enthusiast market and will continue to do so.

Thanks for the clarification Keith.