HELP How expensive does this look??

[Speed Buggy]

Still had noize after the valve check / adjust. This is what I found in the chain box. I didn't drain the oil yet. I just did an oil change with the valve adjust and I had no particulate in the oil. I can't see any jagged ends on the exposed chain rail. I don't know what the plastic piece is. Any ideas? Do I need to take the whole engine apart??

[brads911sc]

Id take it apart. Time and some money for misc items (probably less than 1k if its all in good shape) or a full rebuild at 10-15k when a piece of that causes some major damage.

[Speed Buggy]

Do I have to worry about metal going through the engine or are the pieces too big to worry about??

[Flat6pac]

Something is definitely wrong. Possibly the bearing surface the idler spins on has work out, moving laterally or chunked the rail. The gear on the cam doesnt look as bad as the idler. There isnt that much plastic inside the engine.
Bruce

[johnsjmc]

The biggest pieces will probably stay in the crankcase .Fine metal will be caught by the filter and/or mag drain plug. There is a screen on the pump intake BUT small pices could be pulled up by the pump It only takes a small piece to jam the pump. If that happens the pump driveshaft snaps and the pump stops. If the engine is old enough to have the round metal inspection plate on the bottom I would pull it next and look for more big pieces. Cut open the filter. If there aren,t any you can cross your fingers ,do a couple oil changes . I,d probably dismantle it. Especially if you still have an unexplained noise after replacing the obvious damage . If you dismantle get the oil coolers sonic cleaned.

[Speed Buggy]

brad - take what apart? where do i stop??

[Grady Clay]

Speed Buggy,

Not so fast – you have some more investigating to do.
Clearly ramps, chains and sprockets are in order.

First, measure the cam timing and confirm the cams have not ‘jumped’ time.
Next, measure the cylinder leakage to confirm the valves, rings and heads seal properly (check head stud nuts).

The big issue is if the sprockets or other on the lay shaft (jackshaft) inside the crankcase are damaged.
Carefully set the cams at some known point and back-off the valve adjusters or remove the rocker arms so the valves cannot hit the pistons.
Remove the cam sprockets, tensioners, idlers, ramps and split-off the chains.
Remove the chain housings.
You can now turn the crankshaft without risk of the pistons contacting any open valves.

As you turn the crankshaft, carefully inspect the sprockets on the jackshaft for damage.
Remove the cover on the end of the jackshaft. Measure for excess jackshaft end play.

This should tell you if you need to do other than replace the chains (with split-link chains), replace the sprockets and ramps, rebuild the tensioners and reassemble with new gaskets and O-rings.

The good news is you found this before there was other consequential damage, like this.

Best,
Grady

[lucittm]

Sprocket alignment issue. You can see where the sprocket has started to rub against the chain wheel support in the second picture. Broke the tops off all the teeth. I bet you have found most of the pieces. However, there is some good advice here. Replace the tensioner sprocket, bolt, and chain wheel support and any broken or worn ramps. Check the chain for stretch.

Drain the oil, change the filter, flush it with cheap stuff, run it until it gets hot, drain it again, change the filter. That will cost you, um, not so much. If you find more chunks, you know what to do. If you find no more chunks in the drain pan, filter, or in the chain housing, you got lucky.

Mark

[G50-Love]

first, disconnect the battery and put a piece of tape over the slot for the ign. key - write "NO NO NO" on it

how many miles on the engine since the last major overhaul?

[MBEngineering]

HI Speed Buggy
looking at your photos, the chains are well stretched as the tensioner is fully out and the idler gear (with the teeth missing) has chopped through the chain case inner casting, you need to do the check that Grady has described and check the inner chain wheel in the inter-gear for wear/damage, what mileage has the engine covered? and has it had any work? you could be lucky and the inner chain wheel is still in one bit or only just, before the teeth come off and you loose the cam timing on the R/H side.

regards mike

[Speed Buggy]

Thank you all. I have ~180,000 on the clock and I don't think it has ever been worked on except for the pressure fed upgrade. I did a valve adjust right before (2 days) and found no particles in the oil or on the magnets as it was draining. When I started after the valve check and the noise was still there, I shut her down. I will pull the cover and root around tonight. I will let you know what I find. Thanks again. You are all very helpful.

[Tippy]

Your chains are very strectched. It appears the idler sprocket has touched the casting on the housing and knocked the teeth off possibly.

I guess a masterlink chain can work barring all metal that has liberated is found.

[dshepp806]

Love your quote!

Doyle

[Speed Buggy]

How many of these special tools am I gonna have to get and what ones can I make or imitate with regular tools?

[G50-Love]

there is a special tools thread - not sure if it got very far off the ground though

not too many...

with 180,000 miles on it you may as well rebuild the motor anyway

[Speed Buggy]

O.K. I opened up the filter and this is what I found. Is this fatal or can I flush this with a couple of oil changes?? I think it is aluminum milled from the chain housing because it would not come off with a magnet.

[Speed Buggy]

I haven't reached into the engine through the plate yet.
both drain plugs have no big chuncks on them.

[johnsjmc]

I would tear it down. That looks like a lot of metal .The filter is on the scavenge side so all this trash has probably also deposited in your fender cooler loop before even reaching the filter.The engine mounted cooler and engine bearings etc are on the pressure side of the pump and will have been circulating filtered oil.

[Grady Clay]

Speed Buggy,

Before you make that decision, remove the oil tank and carefully flush it through a filter element (a coffee filter will work).
(You will need to clean the oil system regardless.)
If you find absolutely no sign of contamination, then you have a chance.

The problem is our oil filters have a necessary bypass valve.
If this bypass operates, the debris can go to the oil tank, through the pressure pump and to the critical areas like bearings and oil ports to the pistons and cams.


All this considered, my general philosophy is “If there is any doubt, rebuild it correctly.”
The consequences and cost of a catastrophic failure are far worse than a normal rebuild.
With a rebuild, you get both ‘like new’ (or better) performance AND the confidence in a known fresh engine.

Best,
Grady

[Speed Buggy]

Thank you gentlemen. I will filter the oil and see what I come up with. Wish me luck.