http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1310058004.jpg

Barrpete; SAID= I'd be a bit leery that by restricting air flow through the condensor only that it might also effectively reduce engine cooling air flow and increase the engine temp. Particularly at idle. Or maybe that effect is reduced by adding additional electric fans


Barrpete YOUR Temperature Concerns ARE VALID! We must always remember this is an AIR COOLED ENGINE

However with what I am doing Engine/Oil Temps SEEM NOT TO BE A PROBLEM IN MY TESTING WITH SEALED REAR CONDENSERS IN THE DECK LID SO FAR!

I have driven my car at all hours for several weeks and times of day of testing without an noticeable problems or indication of higher engine related TEMP HEAT
My OIL TEMP gauge works good and I also have a digital temp gauge in the evaporator cabin airflow

Please know I am very aware of engine temperatures and auxiliary systems taxing engine’s because of other engineering work I do in marine engineering,

however perhaps you missed my reply to Cloogie and DRACO A5OG when I told them I had tried and completely tested a universal Parallel Flow condenser from ACKITS in Arizona, for several weeks before I built my own first condensers and had it completely sealed to the deck air inlet, and because it is much smaller then the opening and I used thin clear plastic to fill the air gaps,

I thought I had uploaded a picture showing my ACKIT’S test condenser from ACKIT’s I tried several months ago

So I will upload it again with this message reply

After I installed it I sealed all the gaps,

Look carefully on the right side of the condenser picture between the A/C condenser hoses and the condenser you will see what look like air gaps between the condenser and the right side of the air intake: NOTE: IT IS COMPLETELY SEALED WITH THIN CLEAR PLASTIC YOU CAN SEE THROUGH AND IN THE DECK LID AND THE AIR IS FORCED THROUGH ONLY THE REAR CONDENSER FIRST THEN ENTERS THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT AND THEN GOES INTO THE ENGINE COOLING FAN INTAKE ON THE ENGINE; again from my tests so far seems FINE, at least for my engine and car configuration to not matter so far that I can tell monitoring temperature gauges EITHER BULT IN FOR OIL TEMP TO THE CAR OR WITH MY LAZAR GUN TEMP GAUGE COMPARING THE OIL TANK, AND ENGINE ROOM SURFACES.

The bottom line is; I discovered from weeks of testing a REAR sealed condenser with my stock 2.7 L 1975 911 Carrera, in forcing air from the deck lid engine cooling air inlet opening DIRECTLY ONLY & THROUGH A SEALED REAR CONDENSER; THE ENGINE HEAT TEMP RISE seemed negligible WITH no indication of excessive heat over normal temps. NOTE: This was with a smaller condenser then the opening and several inches wide air inlet opening were lost after being blocked off with thin clear plastic to insure sealing; then my new countered fit that will take full advantage of the full size of the stock air opening

Also, keep in mind that the entire underside of the engine is open. I suspect that the restriction of air through a few square inches of the deck lid grill isn't going to make a huge difference in the operating temps of our engines.

My $.02.

How much are you going to sell these bad boys for dude?

- once all finished of course?
:cool:

Scott yes I know :) and agree with you!

I have not said anything yet but for sometime I have been thinking about making a PF heat exchanger as a front engine oil cooler. It would be pretty easy for me now to custom make one.

I watch my engine temps very careful even before I got into these condensers

My engine oil thermistate has needed to be replaced for sometime and the engine sometimes gets pretty hot after driving and it comes up to normal temp and when i get in stop and go traffic and have to stop and the engine idles a bit too long it makes me unconfortable,

To change the oil temp regulator its far easier then pulling the CIS injection from the top of the engine to get to the
I dont have an oil cooler on my car and know one would help drop my oil temps. .

Patent pending notice !!! & how much
 

Please Note: my condensers are NOW PATENT PENDING!!!
I know some idiot will try to copy my aftermarket Porsche condensers now that I have publicly let the world know they exist, if they do I am ready for them and will own them <grin>


Several people have private messaged me that are interested in buying and I have not said anything to them because I have been thinking about it.

For the general public I am thinking about an initial price of $285 for my front condenser and an initial price of at least $300 for my contour rear condenser

I think this price is too low for a custom handmade limited market PF condenser, I chose this temporarily initial price from prices I have seen by others advertising for what they have, that is not what I have; but I can always adjust the price later.

I have a test marketing ebay listing here
Porsche 911 A/C Front Condenser Parallel Flow | eBay

Dont use ebay to one if you seriously want one private message me it will save you some money over eBay for a limited time untiil I make an arrangement with Pelican Parts, etc


What I am thinking is; soon offering a package deal including a front and rear custom made PF condensers together with an evaporator for initially around $1000 or so for initial end users

Pelican Parts I do not think knows what I am doing yet, but I plan to contact them and inform them; I am thankful they provide a great discussion forum with invaluable information for us Porsche owners, and I also want to say I have bought from Pelican a few times and they provide a very good service and I would recommend them to others for Porsche parts.

FYI I was contacted here in a personal message by RennAir a couple of weeks ago after they read my posts here indicating they are interested in my condensers. Which was funny because I had been wanting to contact them to try one of their evaporators but was just to busy to call them. They are really being nice they are sending me one of their evaporators to test and I plan to return the favor and send them one of my condensers soon.

I noticed that someone is here reading our posts and are subscribed here from Griffins and I am looking forward to communicating with them, and my hats off to them for the wonderful work they do.

The quality of the people here is amazing to say the least

===
Anyway back to price;
Everyone wants price always as cheap as possible ! BUT GOOD QUALITY IS NOT CHEAP, and why I own a Porsche, and this is not Wal-Mart (smile)

However there are many considerations to be made if you make something and want to sell it. First is to make enough from it to make it worth doing, compared to what it cost you which includes your research, development, testing, marketing, manufacturing facility, insurance and warranty etc., costs; followed by distribution costs verses supply and demand.

I am fully aware of the US standard price break structure for auto, marine, and recreational vehicles, after extensively studying this subject several years ago for other products I designed and made. And my prices will conform to this structure. These means there are different levels of price that must conform too this standard. They are for example Stocking Warehouse Distributor, OEM, Distributor, Parts Houses, Dealers, resellers, those in the trade, and finally end users (consumers). The end user price

My initial price here I stated is too low to allow for the US standard price break structure and will probably need change to higher in the future, so consider this if it upsets you!

I want to produce a quality product and stand by it with integrity and I will or OR I will not make it; also I want people to be happy with what I make because I care about people!

Too bad my Euro came with no AC or I'd buy one.

Engine temps & sealed rear condenser
 

Scott yes I know :)
I have not said anything yet but for sometime but I have been thinking about making a PF heat exchanger as a front engine oil cooler. It would be pretty easy for me now to custommake one.

My engine oil thermistate has needed to be replaced for sometime

Question ...your front condenser is 23" x 6.25" x1.0". Is this size the same size as the original in my 79SC and/or will it fit in the original position without having to fiddle with spacers etc.....
in other words...a drop in unit ...thanks for your reply.

It seems someone else is advertising a parallel flow condenser for 911 on eBay, but does not provide an actual photo of the item... Makes me leery when I cannot see the advertised product.
Keep us posted on your progress and pricing.

subscribed

Subscribed...

This other ebay ad almost through me off also because it said Miami which is almost next to Ft. Lauderdale, because I am right in between the two.

Old evaporator
 

I have been having some welding and brazing delay problems with an evaporator I have been working on so I have temporarily shelved this project to finish later so I could finish the connections and testing for my engine lid sealed contour rear condenser as you may have read me say here

This evaporator caused me to be without A/C for several days ouch (its 90 degrees ambient here right now and closed car temp in the sun is 125 degrees plus)

I thought some of you might be interested in this,
You know from my posts I am running a sealed rear deck lid PF condenser as well as a front PF condenser

Yesterday Friday I put back in my original 36 year old 1975 Behr OEM flair fitting evaporator that never has been flushed out and seen better days and should be replaced.

I put a modified thermal expansion flair fitting valve in the piece of crap evaporator & vacumed then charged the system with 2 pounds of R134A
Started up the engine and increased the rpm holding to maybe 2500 or so; pressures were 10psi on the low side and I think they were 225 on the high side
Then I started watching my digital temp gauge in the air vent; temps went down to 45 degrees and I shut down the engine put things away so I could go and test drive the car.

I drove from the shop to the expressway and by this time the engine was at normal operating temp, I do not have a external extra oil cooler installed only the one on the engine.

I drove on the expressway north about 10 miles air vent temp was 51.7 to 52 F;
oil temp was 225F which was normal for this car at this ambiant temp of 90F

I turned around going south and wouldn’t you know it a traffic jam on the expressway soon after I turned around and for the next 5 miles or so it was bumper to bumper stop and go and 25mph, during this vent temp rose to 55F for 20 minutes; then finally speeded up. NOTE: I have been using 60 mph in 4th gear my test speed and rpm for consistency when clear of traffic. For the next few miles before I got off the expressway vent air temps returned to 51.7 ti 52 average vent temp; coldest achieved was 49-50F. Thermometer used for air vent temp is a digital cooking type thermometer with a long metal prob.

For curiosity after I got off the expressway I pulled over and used my digital laser point and shoot thermometer, increased the engine rpm from idle to about 2500 and shot the laser as best I could into/between the holes of the vent air handler ; indicated temps inside the air handler that is not fully sealed combiner and has leaks were 31 down to 19F, this temp would be the plastic deep into the air handler that has 2 sides.

Conclusion
(Remember I consider this 36 year old OEM copper evaporator a junk evaporator he he he but it kind of works) one in better condition would work far better!

Ambient temp yester day was 90-91 F; humidity was low for here at 66 inches of mercury for these tests!
Engine oil temp with the sealed rear deck lid condenser stayed completely within normal limits including in stop and go traffic with much idling

Average speed 4th gear @60 mph ; @52 degrees F air vent temp ; air handler plastic inside temp let’s say @25 F, stop and go slow 15-25 mph speed traffic and idling vent temp 55-58F

(note: as a marine engineer I consider air handler vent temps of 54 degrees F to be very good temps as well as do other A/C experts for cold room A/C temps)

I would think that any 911 getting air vent temps of 52 F would be more then acceptable to any 911 owner to be happy; I used to get this temp sometimes using R-12 refrigerant , number one this is the temp my evaporator protection compressor multi speed blower probe that normal goes into the evaporator is set to regulate evaporator coldest temp shut off for the compressor for the controller I am using; but I have removed the probe from the evaporator and sealed the hole for the probe because its set to high for ME, because I want colder i.e. 38-41 F and don’t need it at this time. Number 2 I have I have never seen or heard of a 911 using R134A get Temps this low using tube and fine front and rear condensers even if they were brand new!

Additional notes: drivers door broken wind wing with 2 inch by 2 inch air hole gap; drivers door to body very badly sealed with several air gaps and inside door panels removed from the inside of the door exposing the full length of door metal and with no insulation; body several holes in the floor PAN underneath allowing air to come in and exist out the door and wind wing. (I know I know he he he; I am working on the body problems and replacement door not fully installed yet correctly to properly fit)

Front Condenser Mounting
 

Howdy Porchcar guy you’re in Albuquerque it’s ouch in the summer; I have been there several times both in summer and winter. I know how hot 100 plus daily can be <ouch> just be thankful you don’t live in Death Valley (smile)


You have asked a good question and brought up some good points!

NO my PF front condenser size is not exactly the same, my front condenser dimension’s are different and larger for a very good reason!!!

Your BEHR OEM tube and fin front condenser is same size as the demension picture below and also shown at the bottom a picture showing OEM demensions, except yours has flair fittings
1989 Porsche 911 BEHR Condenser Front, Valance mounted unit O-RING Fitting Connection OEM # 91157305603
18.78 x 5.11 x 1.26 IN
477 x 130 x 32 mm

Your OEM condenser is only 5.1 inches wide; mine is bigger is sligtly bigger at about 6 1/4 inches so its its wider then the OEM about an inch and a quarter or so; but will still fit in the limited space where yours is

I am not making a perfect dimension fit replacements for the front condenser at this time and I am not sure I will, unless you would demand only this and want to pay more; as well as shoot yourself in the foot with less a efficient PF front condenser then my prototype is.

your 79 SC front OEM condenser IS exactly the same as the BEHR OEM one I removed from my 75 Carrera , and mine was also flair fittings like yours has; the body of the car is exactly the same. In fact from 74 to early 89 even including the front spoilers that the front valance condenser gets right next it, the area space where the condenser can fit is exactly the same unless I am mistaken, and I don’t think so from looking at many cars in the shop on car lifts.

There can be one differences I discovered recently and this is for 911s that never came with factory A/C. or had the front spoiler dam. For these cars the car needs to be modified to allow a/c condensers in the pan; I learned this recently in a discussion with the owner of the repair shop I have been working on my prototypes.

FYI My custom made front condensers have O-RING Fittings and you would have to change the ends to your A/C hoses

FRONT MOUNTING:
As far as front condenser mounting goes; I want to say first on my 75 Carrera before I even got into making condensers I wiped out my front condenser many times hitting concrete parking stops because I did not have the front condenser steel guard on the front instaled. This caused me to rip several condensers from the bottom of the car pan (he he he I know I was a dummy).

When the bolts were ripped out the holes I had made several times over the years or had been there originally they could no longer be used, because I was using sheet metal screws that worked fine until they got ripped out. This caused me to drill more holes all around the area where the car original holes were, to find new places in the underside pan sheet metal; this caused me to move the condenser I had a bunch of times and move my front condenser side to side and up and down the areas of the pan where the condenser could fit and still attach my a/c hoses.

I don’t know why Porsche choose to make the front condenser smaller then they had too because they could have had it made by BEHR slightly bigger then they did from the first one they had BEHR make; but I guess they just did what they did and never changed it.

KEEP IN MIND; There is more room available where the original size OEM front condenser CAN GO AND FIT!!!

Your thinking is it can only go one exact place; this would be true if you only use the never changed original holes for the Screw HOLES for an OEM condenser and replaced it with this same!

ALSO pre-1989 911 / 930 series Porsches where never designed to have A/C it was an afterthought caused by demand in the USA, and from what I have read Porsche did not design the A/C system used in any of this series Porsche it was done by a couple of small automotive repair shops that that also did A/C work, and Porsche factory adopted their production cars using what these shops ideas developed from the USA; unless I am mistaken from many things I have read in the last 20 years.

YOU MUST REMEMBER I THINK IN ENGINEERING OUTSIDE THE BOX! I work on one of a kind, extremely expensive big privately owned CUSTOM MADE Motor Yachts for 35 years that cost tons of money, where money is no object and excellence is the name of the game to achieve everything to make a billionaire happy.

There is a very good reason my front condenser is bigger and approximately 6 inches wide compared to the 5 inch wide OEM unit, and a couple of inches longer too; this WIDTH allows for a few extra rows of flat micro-channel & fin rows that give much greater condenser efficiency then if it had less rows of micro-channel tubes;

I am attempting to maximize my front PF condense surface area and efficiency to the extreme and I have pushed it so far that the last row of micro-channel tube outer outside edge of this PF condenser does not even have any aluminum fin on it, but the other side of it does; just to make it fit as much width as possible!

This last row of micro channel tube is not as efficient as the others in the airflow because of the lack of FIN on one side of it. However it still greatly adds at least some efficiency and ANY EFFICIENCY that can be added to this tiny condenser makes the A/C system work better!

So now let’s go back to your valance pan mounting considerations question he he he
Your original mounting cannot be used the way I am currently making my front condenser; because of where my end brackets are because my condenser is bigger. I could have welded brackets on the underside of it that would line up with your original holes but it would have made a nightmare for you or anyone to try to attach it using the same orginal hole pattern to say the least.

Respectfully I suggest you change your thinking a bit, about mounting

The mounting really does not matter as long as it’s easy to mount securely and 4 small new holes can be drilled that will except either self taping sheet metal crews or bolt and nuts; bolt and nuts PREFERED!

IF you notice on the picture of my front condenser here on the first page of our discussion, the condenser end tubes have several small screw holes along the edge of the tube mounting bracket tab holes and you can use as little as 4 one on each corner or one in every hole of the tubes bracket tab depending on your preference.

These 2 aluminum tubes on the outside of the condenser can be tightened using the tube bracket flanges with screws so the tubes make contact with the sheet metal of the sheet metal pan where it will fit anywhere between the 2 round bars that also holds the front condenser protector and that also connects the supports the front suspension for the wheels. Basically in the same area where the OEM condenser was that seems to fit best.

After you remove the stone guard and old OEM condenser You may have to move the new one around a little to find the best place it fits for your car underside as well as you’re a/c hoses before you firmly secure it.

You mentioned condenser support spacers; Personally I don’t use them; at least not right now.

My personal front PF condenser is currently attached with 4 thin self taping sheet metal screws that were long enough to perforate the sheet metal of the pan, near the 4 corners of my condenser that was the easiest to drill pilot holes, then I just screwed in the sheet metal screw to lightly but snugly pull the condenser side tubes into the pan to be secure. Took me about 15 minutes. The contour of the underside pan in this area is not completely flat. The front edge my condenser is actually just barely touching the sheet metal pan but the back side is far enough away to allow good airflow through the condenser and fins.

I need to state I am not using the stock little squarel cage blower motor and fan in the front trunk because the sheet metal inside my trunk for the pan for the gas tank additional welded in fan shroud for the lower placed below the pan is damaged due to rust; and regarding fan blowers I will talk about this soon; because I have a 4 inch axial tube fan I want to install with much higher air pressure blower I want to install soon; and this will be another discussion later

I have at this time on my front condenser two, 5 inch high speed high quality blower motors fans and it works fine with plenty of airflow;

However this is only to be used temporally because these fans hang below the condenser pulling air through the condenser and its not a good idea to do this and leave this way, as its only a matter of time before I wipe them out from a parking concrete tire stop if am not careful in parking

I must say to all that air flow “through the condensers” not around them is critical for condenser Efficiency For them to work good!!!

I know this is going to be a very important topic, especially for people in the desert climates and those of us in the tropical climates as well as others!!!

Soon after I finish my contour rear condenser this next week, I will bring up the subject of the stone guard that probably will need to be modified to fit with a little bending, and or with a new one I will make available I will make;

Below picture showz the demensions for an O-Ring connection front 89 tube and fin Condenser I believe are pretty standard size for all earlier 911 front condensers
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1310331484.gif

someone else is advertising a condenser on ebay
 

This is an A/C parts company in Miami, I know who they are;

It is a lie these condensers are for Porsches!!!

If you look at their ebay listings they use the same picture

I talked to them months ago about this and was told it was a mistake and would be corrected; however they continue to lie they are for Porsche!!!

They are selling Chinese UNIVERSAL PF condensers

Thanks for confirming, I did figure they weren't up-front with their product or they would have actual pictures listed.

K....Thanks for your informative lesson on front condenser placement. My question about drop in was to have you elaborate on the subject as I plan to remove the OLD front condenser and upgrade to "o" ring fittings as well as pull out the rest of the system and redo with new parts etc...My concern would be placement so as to allow the crash bar and screen to be used as designed, safety measures for that nasty concrete . I would relish a more efficient blower sytem in that area also. good Luck with this project as the Pelicans once again comes thru with new and better designs, or at least innovative ways to make our cars better !!...Geoff

Porsche 911 REAR DECK LID Contour Fit Condenser Prototype finally ready for testing
 

I finally have the rear deck lid countour condenser ready for installation and testing for Monday and expect it to work just fine from my experience with all the different prototypes I already made
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1310873259.jpg

First Test Rear Contour Condeser
 

ALL TEST VENT TEMPS WERE IN THE 40s F! Burr cold

Preliminary Test Results I think went very good for my new rear contour condenser first test!!!
Yesterday Tuesday July 19th

Lowest Test Temp was 41.7 F: average temp with different driving conditions was about 45-46 F. Highest; in stop and go traffic and when idling for short periods was 47-48 max.

Note: The condenser for the first test was quickly installed and was not perfectly sealed to the deck lid with any insulation material yet, and there were some small air gaps around the air intake it closely fits too. I expect when these small air gaps are eliminated the efficiently for the condenser will be further improved resulting in an even further reduction in vent air temps!

The car was inside the shop, air vent temp when the door was open was about 90 F
The A/C system was evacuated and charged with 2 lbs R134A Freon.

The engine was started and ran for a few minutes, no drop in temp was noted in the air vent hmmm strange; and engine was stopped and inspecting the engine compartment it was discovered the A/C compressor clutch connection was not connected (upps DUH, he he no wonder) Clutch wire reconnected, engine started vent temps started falling from 90 F, engine was turned off after air vent temp hit 45 F and still falling.
I think the High side pressure went up to about 190? The low side was about 10 psi; I did not take an ambivalent temp but think it was at least 88 degrees inside the shop


Note: My evaporator plastic box is still not insulated or sealed good and this will lower temps when it is; Also I have I have major air gaps in the driver’s door and some body holes that effect my temps and when I fix this temps will be even lower; also the condenser is not yet completely sealed to the deck lid; this things when they are repaired will greatly increase efficiency and provide lower temps I am sure.

NOTE: I AM GOING TO REDESIGN THIS CONDENSER A LITTLE AFTER LEARNING A FEW THINGS AFTER I INSTALLED IT RELATED TO HOSE CONNECTIONS http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311166113.jpg

I'm local. Might bring my SC 3.2 for an upgrade.

Howdy ErVikingo, You are welcome to private message me here if you are interested

My Friends Porsche shop where I am engineering the condeners >; Stokes Automotive, is west of 95 about 2 miles, and near Hallandale Beach Blvd a couple of blocks North, in West Park, Florida which is between the cities of Hallandale and Hollywood FL

Is that Butch's new location?

Butch Stokes; Stokes Automotive
 

Well sort of he he he

Butch retired a couple of years ago after owning the shop for 30 plus years sold the shop propertly that was next to I-95 and sold the well established business to Justin Stokes. his nephew who worked for him many years, and Justin moved the shop when the property was sold to its current location , Marty left Butch a few years ago and started his own Porsche racing business that is about 15 to 20 miles or so north

BTW: Its funny you asked this today, Butch was at Justins shop today working on a special engine project for and old customer and friend; he drops by from time to time.

I'm also thinking about this a/c set up. Mine needs more than just this upgrade because I still have the original compressor and hoses. I'm in Hollywood so I know the shop you are talking about. I believe it's run now by Butches nephew Justin. It right next to James McHugh auto painting.

Hi Jerry,

Yes Jim McHugh (senior) owns the property that also has his well known for high quality painting and auto customization company and rents one of his shops to Justin for Stokes Automotive

Small world isn’t it

I have known Butch and Justin for I think maybe about 20 years they are quality, honest people with integraty



Regards,

Reid (954) 599-5235

41 F - 42 F vent temp Thursday, July 22
 

Thursday, July 22

I made some new adjustments to my thermal expansion valve

Yesterday late afternoon driving test vent temps results ambient temp was 91 degrees F

Coldest temperature achieved was 37.7 F but this was only temporary

On late afternoon 10 mile each way 60 mph 4th gear driving test Averaged vent temps late afternoon where 41 to 42 F

CONSTANT air vent temps @41 degrees or better with R134A and ambient @91 F had been my target temps and I think i have achieved my target temp with my custom made 911 front and rear PF condensers?

btw this was aceived without me wraping insulation around the outside of my plastic evaporator box that I know doing this will lower air vents temps further

I now expect achieving even colder air vent temps in the 30s

Its July, there are record heat waves currently hitting severa; states across much of the the usa @ 116 ouch

ANYONE Want AN ICE COLD Porsche 911 <grin>

Please explain to educate:

For a given condenser should the return fitting and heat exchanger orientation be located to have the best chance of picking up liquid compared to gas? I.e at the bottom as installed?

Some of these prototypes looking like the tubes are a single pass or maybe double pass (over and back), does this matter? If the net heat rejected is the same or better, does that matter?

Thanks.

Hello hcoles

I have to be very careful what I say here regarding parallel flow Condenser technology because my condensers Are “Patent Pending” !!!

i do not know who you asked your question or said your statements too? And your question & statements are confusing

But some of your statements are incorrect so I will say this

My condensers are triple pass using latest technologies for R134A Freon! It is a widely known PFC fact the more pass’s the higher the PFC efficiency!

Any PFC condenser is considered to be generally 30 percent (or better up to maybe 45 percent) more efficient than any prior A/C condenser for any application and not just for auto’s.

Look at some of the diagrams I uploaded with my posts here, of generally industry accepted technology diagrams showing the progression of A/C condenser technologies

NOTE: Serpentine & FIN IS A MUCH OLDER Technology then PF Coils ; Serpentine condensers were invented back in the R-12 Freon Days; compared to PFC technology which was developed specially for R134A because it is so much LESS EFFICENT then R-12 was, before R-12 manufacturing was banned in most of the world.

Serpentine & FIN is only slightly better efficiency than Tube & Fin efficiency and neither of these older type heat exchangers work very efficiency & they are now considered to be obsolete for Autos/Trucks/Aircraft/etc mobile equipment!

ALL auto/truck/etc manufacturers worldwide are currently building their vehicles A/C systems using PFC’s; including even the newest Carbon Dioxide CO2 super high pressure refrigerant A/C system Technologies being currently installed at most new car USA manufactures if I am not mistaken !

For example You can go to this web site that makes small aircraft custom A/C and uses parallel flow technology if you like; what they have written there about PFC technology might help you understand some of it better; however I do not agree with everything they say about condensers being placed down flat and must be horizontal; (but I cannot elaborate why I say this due to patents pending!!!)

experimental aircraft air conditioning - Condensers

However I will say my secondary front condenser sits flat horizontal installed between the front tires kind of similar as the OEM condenser!

As for my rear contour condenser it sits vertical in the 911 deck lid kind of similar as the OEM condenser !

NOTE: a/c condensers have basically one purpose to receive high pressure refrigerant gas that comes from the high pressure side of the A/C refrigerant gas compressor COOL the high pressure compressed gas below its phase change temperature state enough lowered to allow the phase change state from a high pressure hot gas to a pressurized phase change state liquid (note: anyone is welcome to correct me if I said this wrong I am a Marine Engineer, not a Refrigeration Engineer)

I live in the Tropics in heat and humidity, I want COLD YEAR ROUND NOT COOL THIS is why I got into this!!! NOW I GOT COLD 911 <GRIN>
Reading about the super high 116 F temps in much of the US sure makes me glad I finally got cold, as hot as our temps here get in July I normally dread August and September here but this years driving is going to be different; I sure feel sorry for the people in the northern US that normally never gets this hot in summer getting high desert temps they never do ouch.

Hcoles I would think your interest should be how cold your car is on any given hot day and you never sweat again driving and are always very comfortable, not warm or hot compared to how poorly inefficient or positively efficient your A/C system is no matter where your Porsche is driven, 1963 to 1989 rear engine Porsches never were designed to have A/C and Porsches fix due to demand really sucked to say the least but I guess you have learned this.

will you be making a rear "R-12" specific condenser? for those of us here in the southwest that still have R-12????

Thanks for the info. I asked only here and only questions. I have an 89 and yes my interest is to redo the AC with only bolt no parts that fit without adding e.g. condensers or fans/etc. I'm lucky that the climate here is for the most part fine without AC but when driving in the summer to the track it can be hot.

My limited knowledge is that the "hot gas" has what is called quality (% of liquid?) and then is condensed to a higher (% of liquid) exactly what the lowered temp. is I don't know, the temp. comes down after mixture is mostly liquid? I think it can be determined on the enthalpy chart. Interesting to know your hex is 3 pass, has to be an odd number if the headers are on different sides.

I'm not trying to reverse engineer the detail of your design just asking questions.

Thanks again.

911 using PFC's & R-12
 

QUOTE=ODDJOB UNO;6153052]will you be making a rear "R-12" specific condenser? for those of us here in the southwest that still have R-12????[/QUOTE]

Howdy ODDJOB,

a separate "R-12" specific condenser" is not needed,

I thought it should be obvious from what i have posted here, but from your question I guess I was wrong, sorry so I will tell you

In a nutshell the whole world of heat exchangers was revolutionized with the invention of the latest technology “micro-channel extrusions” placed one after the other with new more enhanced fins placed between 2 tubes in parallel flow because this recent invention originally I think called a BAM COIL; affords an efficacy compared to any prior heat exchanger by from approximately 25 to 45 percent efficacy then any prior invented together with the ability to also be 25 to 35 or so percent smaller in size dimensions and still afford this much higher efficiency ; you can search the internet and read tons of scientific and educational proven studies that confirms this

What this means is an R-12 Freon System WITH AN OLDER TECHNOIGY CONDENSER CHANGING TO A PFC, Efficiency changes basically higher "proportionally" as when using R-134A or other type of Freon refrigerant

In other words an R-12 Freon A/C system efficiency basically increases approximately 30 to 45 percent potential becomes basically COLDER using a PFC compared to any other type of prior invented condenser design. (note: anyone with better knowledge related to gases is welcome to chime in and correct me if I did not explain this correctly, I am a marine engineer not a refrigerant gas, HVAC or Thermodynamics engineer)

My bottom line opinion is USE PFC’s with R-12 if you want coldest

I currently would also say regardless if you are using any normally used refrigerants for cars as long as they can withstand the pressures I think they will work great; however i.e. CO2 might be a problem due to its extremely high pressures blowing up the condenser <grin>

Next Generation Refrigerant Debate – CO2 v HFC-1234yf and HC solutions
Next Generation Refrigerant Debate – CO2 v HFC-1234yf and HC solutions | Green Cooling Association

this might help people see how the improved heat transfer is accomplished with the micro-channel design, this does not match the exact detail design of the hex described in this thread, refrigerant systems are a good use of micro-channel heat exchangers compared to water based fluids which are more apt to encounter issues.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311441736.jpg

of course micro-channel heat exchangers have been around for years in many shapes and sizes, nice that someone is offering a replacement fitted for the older 911's.




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311446516.jpg

hcoles you are welcome, and please feel free to ask anything you want and if i can’t or won’t answer it properly I think someone else will.

to let you know I am interested in finding out more about your 89 911, is it early or late model 1989???

I ask because the late model 89s are water cooled and have a later body style I think

we had an 89 911 in the shop the other day and I looked at its rear deck lid tube and fin condener which has a couple of condenser tube passes and the earlier ones dont.

I have not look at the 89 late water cooled model 911 that has a later body style or the A/C system in it, and wonder if its it is different then the early 1989 non-water cooled model?

Regardless I am interested in your car a/c system over the earlier model years

I believe you are not trying to reverse engineer; however it’s not personal I have been advised by attorneys to be very careful what I say here because this is a public forum and my condensers are patent pending, for this reason I won’t/can’t get into any discussion related to the technical aspects of my condensers for obvious reasons (smile) but I will try to be as helpful as i can

FYI: although they have not posted messages here there are some extremely knowledgeable and helpful people here reading these posts and I welcome them and encourage them to add their vast knowledge and experience to this thread so all can learn

Many people here were very interested in PFC's for their 911s in years past and if you do searches here you will find several prior discussions here; but probably stopped posting discussions finally about them because no one made one anywhere that was designed to fit a 63 to 1989 911 Porsche. I know this because i have read all of them in my 4 year search to try to buy them both front and rear. I hope that some of these people come back and add to our discussions

My 89 is a 3.2 the 964 3.6 started that year and was also air cooled along with the later 993. So my car is right in there with the common group that needs better AC. I think the 964's and later had better AC.

thanks for the pictures, I agree whey will help other understand better this new quickly changing technology

I think this PF micro-channel type you show is the early old PICOLO round hole type, and could be a superflow non multi-pass type, this early micro-channel technology has been vastly improved FYI

a ton of new design patents pending have been flying out almost daily since about 2003 related to this technology its actually amazing

To let you know the reason I decided to make 911 PFC's is because after searching almost daily for years to find them that would fit my 75 911 I got angry they just simply did not exist so it forced me to make my own and after all this work and cost to perfect this I decided to make them also for others who will want them for the same reasons that made me mad enough to make my own, even though it will be a very limited market that wants a quality product for their Porsche with the latest technology available and most of ALL THEY FINALLY GET COLD!

How about a better condenser for 964/993 cars??

Thank you for telling me you have an early model 89, this is my favorite year for Porsche 911s!!! Porsche's Most Beautiful 911 in my opinion! I will always be sad they changed the 911s they built after yours

From looking recently at a few 89 811s your front condenser placement is basically the same placement and same body as my 75 front OEM condenser except mine had flair fittings. My new front PFC is slightly larger than the OEM to use every inch available for mounting

Your deck lid rear condenser is also basically the same as my OEM, except in the later years after 83 there was a change to the rear condenser having more passes in the tube and fin of the later condenser but the mounting and dimensions is basically the same as my OEM with only minor changes. I have greatly changed from the OEM to be made to fit much better then Porsche did with my couture fit deck lid PFC perfectly fitting like a glove


Whenever possible I need to repair something on my old 75 I always try to use 98 model year parts if i can make them fit and most times i can. You have many parts on your car I would love to steal from you he he he because they are the latest made enhancements for the original 911 series

FYI if someone gave me a brand new Turbo Carrera or almost any year 911 2000-2011 Porsche i would try to sell it the next day in a heartbeat or trade it for a turbo Carrera or a CAB. 1989 911; I think the Porsche 911s built after yours are ugly and I don’t like them; even though i know they are fast and handle good, i would rather have then one of these 2000s year, an older 2 seater BMW Z-1 or Z-2 that has a different modified engine then what it came with, because think they are cool and i like how they look but the BMW Z engine has no balls

OH I forgot if you do a search here there were several interesting posts from people discussing PFC’s written a few years ago.

funny you should ask How about a better condenser for 964/993 cars??[/
 

Howdy mamut,

Hello mamut,

funny you should ask he he he

quick answer OK maybe but not right now

I am a little busy getting out a pair of requested test samples of my 911 front and rear PFC's to a well known Porsche A/C company who has a special customer excited about what I am doing

personally I do not know how good/how bad the A/C system works on these model Porsches you ask about normally???

CAN YOU TELL ME THE A/C TEMP PROBLEMS FOR THIS MODEL DRIVERS EXPERIENCE?

I have noticed that Griffins has Serpentine condenser replacements for these models shown on their web site

I have also noticed that someone from Griffins is subscribed to this forum thread here & probably reading and maybe they will join the discussion and add their vast knowledge and experience etc. and I welcome them to join us. They have been at the forefront of the aftermarket improvement of Porsche's A/C systems for many years and do a great job doing what they do to say the least!

I actually was giving this little thought recently to make PFC'S for other Porsche models besides the 63 to 98 911s and was looking at a few of the Porsche other models recently, and while I was thinking about this Justin (the owner of Stokes Automotive had a C-2 and also a C-3 in the shop a couple of weeks ago when I was working on my condensers, during the time he was changing their evaporators because they were leaking Freon which I thought very odd; regardless I took quick look at their condensers

Anyway when these cars were in the shop, I did not realize they used or had serpentine condensers when I looked at them quickly but was not sure what they had; it looks like now after reading Porsche and Behr condenser info at Griffins on these cars (see below) apparently they have/use serpentine condenser; the way they are enclosed/encased in their framework makes it difficult fpr me to tell the technology used when quickly looking.

This info comes from Griffith web site

Porsche Year OEM PN

964, C2, C4
1989-1994
99357301101
993
1995-1998
99357301101

OEM serpentine condenser. Fits all C2, C4, 964, 993 non turbo and turbo applications.


Never the less, in talking to Justin when he was working on these 2 cars a couple of weeks ago (that were the same models you asked about) in the shop I asked him how good the A/C system on these Porsche models worked compared to earlier model 911s and he told me pretty good because he has worked them since these models were introduced.

I remember thinking when I looked at their A/C condensers it would probably be fairly easy for me to make PFC condensers for them, and I wondered what the demand would be from people with these models of Porsche, but I really have no idea ???


For some time I have been really busy trying to finish the final prototype for my 911 contour deck lid PFC and I think it's finally done?

I have also been thinking about making aftermarket PFC's for large truck A/C systems that go on the roof top of the tractors that I have learned are very similar but slightly larger than the PFC's I am making for the early 911s. I was amazed to learn their only after market replacement was similar to their OEM old technology mostly tube and fin and some using serpentine and they do not have or can get PFC's for any of millions on the road today of these older trucks and this presents an interesting market; but I have to take this one step at a time because I am very limited on money to say the least.

Mamut I would imagine because you have this model Porsche you have met and/or talked to several other owners about YOUR A/C SYSTEM AND COMPONENTS and their pluses and minus related to efficiency AND TEMPS etc and that because of your interest in your Porsche model year you interact with others or read other places with similar people as you. Maybe start a NEW different forum thread related to all models of Porsche general discussion related to Parallel Flow, PFC's and the latest technology in i.e. multi-tank or other types of Evaporators, as well as reduced size barrier A/C hoses, dryers, thermal expansion valves, Variable Orifice Valves, pro-coolers, insulation materials