This may be too basic.
Do I have this single line diagram for a Carrera 84-89 correct?
During discussions it might be handy to refer to this for temperatures, pressures, gas or liquid states. I also hear of e.g. over pressure switch, where does that go? This is rev. 1, I can edit for corrections or more detail.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311522435.jpg

You want/need one or more of these to protect your A/C
 

YOU WANT/NEED ONE OR MORE OF THESE TO PROTECT YOUR A/C http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311521860.gif

I bet you don't have an A/C filter protecting your compressor, condenser, your evaporator etc to save you from a really big future headache

I am going to make this an option component for my condensors for several reasons; the most important being that PFC micro-channel tubes if clogged by any foreign particals semt to them in high pressure gas line coming from the compressor

This cleanable filter is unique it has a small sight view window that lets you quickly determine any debri it filters and catches and should last the life of you car

This thread is cool :)

Should I ever find the right sc I will buy one!

[QUOTE=hcoles;6154785]This may be too basic.
Do I have this single line diagram for a Carrera 84-89 correct?
During discussions it might be handy to refer to this for temperatures, pressures, gas or liquid states. I also hear of e.g. over pressure switch, where does that go? This is rev. 1, I can edit for corrections or more detail.



[Not bad for a start

CALL ME 954-599-5235 I am in Ft. Lauderdale so we are both looking at your diagram at the same time and we can do this fairly quickly
you have a couple of things that are not correct for 911 Porsches in your diagrams and trying to make the needed corrections with multiple posts would clog up the tread (smile)

fyi for any needed usable pressures and pressure drops for either the low side or high side there are no connections on any of the individual A/C components except only the normal high and lowside connections on or near the compressor, therefore without these/this non existent component hose fitting connections on each component for pressures both in and out, this makes it basically impossible to discuss in layman’s or in scientific terms refrigeration aspects other then what the a/c system high side and low side normal connections provide for only a general overall diagnostics discussion

personally I am very interested in these things and when I get some time I will probably remake a full set of modified components for extreme analytical analysis and design modification, but I will never make this information public or discuss it with anyone due to legal concerns until after I am granted the patents


Reid

[QUOTE=KelogGes;6154989] I'm just trying to layout what the stock design is and how it works, I don't think we consider this type of info. proprietary on this forum.

Please use my diagram and mark over the top or describe sending to PM hc.coles@gmail.com so we don't clog up the thread until a more accurate diagram can be posted. Others are invited to comment on my diagram of the stock design. I'm sorry I can't understand your middle paragraph.

KeloGes, very interesting! I recently purchased a 87 911 cab, black on black. I live in north Texas so I appreciate your desire for cool air. I'm currently "fixing" all the items of immediate concer, AC compressor is removed for repair or replacement. The car AC system is stock, obvious I'm looking to upgrade. Please keep me updated with work. Hangar21@me.com. It's great to see that someone wants to buid it BETTER! While I'm good mechanical things, I'm not good with this iPad. Can someone help me subscribe to this link! Thanks Terry

Brain Fart, since it is hybrid of sorts, can you rig up a helper spring to swing the arm back into postion? That is what my 3.2 Omega ring does. Just a thought.

Hangar21, once you've made a post you're automatically signed up to receive all future posts to this thread. You can thank our host Wayne for setting that up. Now if you want to join in and read along with a thread with out "subscribing or bump" then all you have to do is go to the top of the page and drag down from the tool bar, "Thread Tools" and click on SUBSCRIBE. From then on you're automatically signed up to receive all future posts to that thread or until you UNSUBSCRIBE.

Mitch, thanks-I,m subscribed. My 87 has a wide body " turbo look" similar to yours. Looks great! I'm in Keller ( north of ft. Worth ). This thread sounds very interesting? How's your A/C working? Made any changes? Again, thanks for the help. Terry

Terry,

I love my Turbo Look... The A/C is doing well, I just added Griffith's front condenser and upgraded from Rennaire's evaporator to Griffith's evaporator. Griffith's evaporator is thicker and has more serpentine tubes. I'm always looking for that edge when it comes to our Texas summers. I had some other issues that Griff worked through with me, the guy really hangs in there with his customers.

Stop in some time for a Shiner. We didn't mean to Hi-Jack this thread...

improvement design change on my deck lid rear contour PFC condenser
 

FYI

I have made an improvement design change on my deck lid rear contour condenser to the high side hose connection placement and type of the fitting; after I successfully tested my latest rear contoured PFC early last week

I have been talking with Cab the owner of RennAir after they read what I am doing here and they contacted me and informed me they are interested in my condensers; and also he wants them for a special client of theirs. I should be able to send them a front and rear matched pair of samples for testing tomorrow Monday if all goes as planned.

RennAir was really helpful to me in sending me one of their 911 Serpentine Evaporators and helping me get it dialed in, which allowed me to complete my rear deck lid contour testing, when I got bogged down and got greatly delayed with a custom made evaporator I made that would fit inside the plastic 911 smugglers box in my car; I had been experimenting with.

I am confident RennAir’s testing should go very well; my testing sure has for me.
It should be very interesting learning their test results. I am very curious of their test numbers especially because their installation will include both their evaporator AS WELL AS THEIR PROCOOLER as well as both my condensers. I am pretty sure their numbers will be in the low 30s time will tell and we will know this next week.

STAY TUNED I think somebody is going to have a very cold 911 IN TEXAS <grin>

[QUOTE=hcoles;6155205] I GUESS YOU MISSED THE FIRST FEW WORDS OF MY FIRST PARAGRAPH I WROTE YOU???

The question I have is if the diagram that hcoles posted is accurate for the standard A/C on a 84-89 air cooled 911? I think it would be good to have an accurate diagram of the stock system when we are talking about how it can be improved if at all.

The micro condensers seem an interesting possibility!

I'd say both of the diagrams are accurate for a typical TEV system, however you could delete the "TAP'S" or move them over to the compressor manifolds and note them as 'service ports'.

KeloGes,

Several of us are interested in your product and new design but a question or three.

I have an 1985 Targa that has been backdated to look like a 1973 RS. Also has a 3.6 in the back.

The car has factory air but its 25 year old vintage. Like the idea of using your new design front condensor but really do not want to use the condensor on the engine lid that puts more hot air in the engine. As well would rather move weight forwards, not aft.

Do you have a condensor that would fit in the front LH wheel-well like the 993 design? Was thinking that this combined with the stock nose condensor would be enough to cool the air if they were of the new design. Would build a shroud over it and put a flat fan on the unit to get air through the unit.

Thx,

Joe A
Phoenix

Doesn't node "E" goes on the bottom of the receiver and node "F" goes at the top.... That is why you see the ball floating.

I will also say the node "A and B" and "C and D" are the same nodes.... If used as reference, this is more accurate for a piping/process diagram.

im gonna chime in here as joe and i are amigos and live 10min from one another and we are in to up fixin our a/c systems. this is what i want to do with my 87 cab (red/black top):

i like the idea of your front condenser and rear condenser with filters. i dont want to put condensers in my wheel wells as i track the car and i dont care what anyone says, all it takes is one lug nut or rock despite a stainless screen to ruin my day let alone the added weight. also i am staying with R-12 cuz i dont give a damn about al gore or the planet cuz i live in hell(arizona). you wanna test? try 116-118 degrees F with humidity.(july/august here). makes the east coast look like kindergarten as far as temps.

we just finished an entire retro of a 74 karmann ghia a/c system to r-134, with (2) spal fans on 12x14 condensers in front of both front wheels. stock crappy oem evap, new compressor, and we made the lines and fittings. blows 31.9 degrees on a freeking 116 degree F day. you actually have to turn the fan down or yer teets will freeze off.

so we kind of know something about a/c. not everything and really dont care to know everything about a/c unless i was in the biz which i aint and never will be.



so quote ME a price on a front zoomy condenser in the OEM spot, and a rear zoomy condenser in the rear oem deck lid spot with filters for a R-12 system on my 1987 cab.

gonna go with griffs evap and evap(whirbelwinder) fan and dryer bottle. we will make our own lines once again.


joe and i will test the HELL out of them here and if its GOOD we will say so in spades. if its CRAP we will say so X 1-BILL-YON! cuz thats how we roll!


i love being a lab rat test guinea pig!

Cool.... Looking forward to the results from the lab rat.

As I said before, I used the Retro system due in large part to the light condenser in the hood as opposed to multiple and/or exposed locations.

It would be nice to see you sell your product through one of the suppliers (e.g. a Retro or similar) as I do think it appears to be a better mousetrap and you are doing some nice engineering on it.

I won't be changing out mine, but if I had to, I am pretty sure I'd be buying your condenser....

D.

89 911 carrera oem deck lid oem condenser
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311633694.jpg


89 911 CARRERA OEM DECK LID OEM CONDENSER

I thought some of you guys would like to see the latest R-12 Freon technology Porsche used for their early model 1989 911’s
Rear Deck Lid OEM TUBE & FIN O-Ring Fittings Condenser before the changed to water cooled 911s and changed the body style; this car also has a front condenser 5 inches wide and about 20 or so inches long that fits between the front wheels flat but it is the same as the other previous 0-Ring front condensers I believe

This model year was basically the end of the 911 line in 1989, which started in the early 60s, before they changed to water cooled

This Black 89 911 was in the shop for work not related to A/C work, but for other mechanical repair work.

I am showing this to you for a few reasons related to it’s deck lid A/C OEM BEHR condenser and has an unusual high pressure side hose connection on the Right

The condenser is tube & fin, but it is an enhanced updated double pass tube & fin design compared to the flair fitting ones, and the early 83 on 0-Ring fitting SC’s and other 911/930 models, I am not sure what year after 83 Porsche started using this latest 911 prior to 89 condenser? But it can be identified fairly easy when the deck lid is open and you see the horizontal bottom edge of the deck lid closest to where you would be standing is not squared it is tapered (prior deck lid condensers were squared and were less passes and not as efficient)

What is also unusual compared to some prior years is the U shaped high side hose connection coming from the compressor on the right

Note: I am not an expert on this A/C system so if I made any mistakes in my description feel free to correct me!

1989 models are my favorite 911, I was very sad what Porsche made after the early 1989 models!

That is not a Turbo!

Here is an update and likely not completely correct of a schematic of my 1989 Carrera AC system. Looks like two nice locations for micro channel heat exchangers.

Please comment for mistakes or other items you want shown. I added better detail on how the receiver/dryer works and now show the high and low taps at the compressor as others mentioned.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311640896.jpg

Thanks Guys for correcting me!!!', YOU ARE RIGHT its not a Turbo I made a mistake; we had 2 1998 911s in the shop today a brown one that was a turbo and this black one that is not a turbo ;

Regardless I have shown this black 98 911 because of its deck lid condenser design and its hose fittings to show its early 1989 Porsche 911 A/C technology ONLY

1963-1989 Porsche 911 Matched Pair Set Front & Rear PFCs ready for shipment
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311645725.jpg


Somebody's HOT SUMMER in Texas is going to have an ICE COLD 911


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311645828.jpg

There is a a new revision to the deck lid rear contour condenser the right high pressure connection fitting was changed to a different place and angel and also on the contour condenser the 0-Ring fittings are #8 in from the high side of the compressor & #6 out to the front condenser

The front condenser by request is #6 in from the rear deck lid contour condenser & #6 out to the filter dryer in the left front tire wheel well

Very nice looking!

Anything you might have that would fit in a LH front fender? I do not have room on the back lid for a condensor there so have to put one elsewhere.

Thx,

Joe

Howdy Joe,

ANYTHING I HAVE NOW NO; not at this time

this pair you see are currently handmade highly customized for 63-98 911s pushing the envelope of limits of available room both front and rear with the latest parallel flow micro channel technology that is 30 to 45 percent more efficenct then ANY PRIOR technology and have been sometime in development, they are not even into production yet, but by special order

But I may make fender units later after what I am doing now is in production; and depending on demand???

Have you checked out what Griffins offers for fender wells ? They are using older serpentine technology but they have good products

I noticed you are also into Jags, this might be a potential market also for later, I am also considering big rig trucks for on top of the tractor-cab condensers that are forced to use after market tube & fin or serpentine technology and there are millions on the roads

I am interested for my 1975. However, I don't think I have a front condenser. It should still work better than stock? Right?

My car now has only the single rear condenser (the Retroaire one....not as nice as this part, neither as big) and so far I have zero cooling problems. Outlet air is in the 36 degree range on a 29 degree (c) day.....

I suspect this one will give more than enough cooling capacity all by itself with just the engine cover condenser.

D,

Cloggie,

I used to live just East of where you are and the climate is no where near what we have in the Southern part of America. We used the A/C on our 1981 911SC only about a month out of the year.

As long as your temps are in the normal range, a improved condensor like these here should be a big help. Have you also upgraded your compressor? Forgotten what year 911 you have but if you have an older style compressor that might also be something to look at.

Joe A

KeloGes,
Great product. I am working on a highly modified turbo. I do not have room in the tail for a condenser. I think Griffiths has one that fits in the back of the rear fender. Any thoughts on this configuration? Maybe 1 in each rear fender - I am not a engineer on this subject, just asking stupid questions.

Also, I still can use the stock location up front.

Thanks for the info. Excellent thread.

Mark

My front location has a big oil cooler. My left front fender is available though.

Agreed and no debate, the larger condenser will make a difference as the outside air temperatures get higher.

In my case, all the parts are new as part of the Retroaire kit, compressor is a Sanden (507 if I recall) and all the parts seem well matched.

I do like what this guy is doing, I hope some of the distributors pick up his parts or perhaps he gets into the business of selling full kits/upgrades. I wish him well.

D.

Thank you for the comments Cloggie,

I will be Very soon offering complete kits for these 911 models i have stated <grin> i.e. reduced barrier hoses, dual front and rear PFC condensers, filter dryer, evaporator, thermal expansion valves (TXV) & (VOV) Variable Orifice Valves, insulation & sound proofing materials , maybe even a pro-cooler; The Whole Ensalada of Porsche A/C related parts & accessories etc.

I am doing things in the background I have not said anything about yet

ON another note:
I am also thinking of expanding my PFC product line into other Porsche models ; may add BMW, Jaguar, etc, Big RIG Trucks; and custom made Smaller Universal size PFCs not offered by anyone and also for the automotive, other vehicles’ truck, marine & recreational markets, no to forget medical and industrial markets

Starting by complete accident and making my very HOT old 911 A/C COLD that no one I am aware is doing with the latest technoligies I am using for the early Porsche 911s for aftermarket, now leads to step by step what I am doing now; The potential for A/C and Heat Exchanger cutting edge technology niche markets worldwide is vast so let’s see where it goes?

Howdy Mark,

Thank you for the kind comments!

hmm I will think about it more related to a PFC that will fit in other placesl

IT actually would be FAIRLY easy now for me to make almost any demensions I want, but I do not reallly know what the demand is for these type of units in other places in the body ?

What an awesome thread! Wish I had seen this when I added air to a 69 911T a few years ago. I would have placed an order on the spot for KelogGes' rear condenser.

One thing I'll add for anyone wanting cold air from a 911, and a lesson I learned from building mine, is that a significant amount of air will bypass the rear condenser when the decklid is closed, as it just enters the engine compartment through the gaps between the decklid and the body. You can seal these gaps with generic automotive weatherstripping, available from just about any autoparts store.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311702264.jpg

Mark, no room in the RH rear fender, your oil tank is there. Thats why everyone is using the left hand side front and rear fenders.

Frankly I try to stay away from the LH rear fender as the last thing the 911 needs is MORE weight in the rear, so the front is a ideal choice. The hoses have to go in that direction anyway so might as well. I work with aircraft for a living so running hoses is not anything new to me.

Just wish that we had a new generation condensor that would fit in the front fender to work with the nose condensor!

Joe A

Joe,

what are the approximate length and width demenions that would work for the condenser area you are talking about if you know?

Reid,

Thanks for the reply and let me get a tape out and do some measurements. Am very adaptable on size, just need enough room to make a shroud (friend has a vacuum machine that can do this) for a fan then stick the puppy in one of the fender-wells and plumb it up.

Odd Job and I are looking at buying two of the front under-bumper condensors from you and I would rather get something that would work in the "fender" area as well from you. Believe that he is going to get a deck-lid mounted condensor from you as well, so we are looking at 3-4 units. If we got them all from you they would be matched in their flow rate, so the system should work better.

Any suggestions on a more modern Evap unit? Griffiths is more money than this poor boy can afford, and the guys in Dallas (Rennair) refuse to sell them without buying their kit, so they just lost us there.

Thx,

Joe

KelogGes,

Since you are entertaining condenser setup other than the rear decklid or flat front location, I would be interested in the possibility of a front condenser which would be located upright in the front center oil cooler location. I think to get enough condenser to only run a front condenser and no rear decklid unit you might need to double the thickness. This could have a pull thru fan to ensure air flow at stop or low speed.

This would look like a front oil cooler only rather that a single core it would have two cores stacked front and rear.

I am including photos of a oil cooler install to give you an idea of the proposed configuration. The dimensions of the oil cooler are 5.5" x 2.25" x 24"

This is not a rush project as it sound like you have some immediate interest in the parts you are developing.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719062.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719079.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719102.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719121.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719138.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719154.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719171.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1311719185.jpg

great Idea to get a tape <grin> i am Curious to know what the demenions are

FYI I can get you a Rennair evap with out you buying their Kit, read my next post about RennAir

if you guys go together at the same time i am sure we can work something out if you like for you and your friends.