I make Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers for 911's front and rear

[KelogGes]

Greetings to the moderators and to all the users here! And Thank You to Pelican Parts for hosting the technical discussion area’s for many years!

Happy Fourth of July Holiday; looks like summer is here

Having owned a 911 for 20 years and I having enjoyed reading here for many years, the information I have found reading here is invaluable to say the least to gain technical knowledge and the people seem very friendly and helpful.

I would like to start a new discussion thread related to 1963-1989; 911 930 & 912
Porsche A/C Front & Rear, Parallel Flow micro-channel Condensers and the latest technologies in evaporators, the prior discussion about Parallel Flow micro-channel Condensers people here discussed is very old and I believe I have new things to contribute related to vintage 911 Porches A/C systems.

I had tried to buy Parallel Flow micro-channel Condensers using the latest technology for my front condenser after reading here and several other places on the net and much searching worldwide for them without success for almost 4 years to fit my 1975 911 Carrera to replace my stock Tube & Fin OEM condensers

I Finally GOT angry I could not buy one anywhere to use as a front condenser so I have made several of my own custom designed front and rear Parallel Flow micro-channel Condensers prototypes that use the latest micro channel technology

My interest started out as a project to make my old 911 cold after many years of only having my car cool but not cold driving it daily. I live in Fort Lauderdale in south Florida, the weather here is a year round is a tropical climate with much of the year having high humidity and using air conditioning year round here almost every day is a MUST for everyone here except for a few weeks a year. In summer due to the high humidity especially in August and September the heat is brutal.

I have a friend who has a Porsche repair shop here called Stokes Automotive I am using to make and test what I am making and I will post more pictures soon

[DRACO A5OG]

Whoa

Where there is a WILL there is a WAY. NICE!

What is the projected price point on these beauties. Of course after test results.

Need a Beta Tester?

P.S. Welcome Aboard!!!

[KelogGes]

The picture above is one of several prototype front 911 condensers I made, overall dimensions are approximately 23 inches long; 6 1/4 inches wide; & slightly less than one inch thick I made and works great after testing it for a few weeks, the stock tube and fine condenser I replaced it with this one is about 5 inches wide and much thicker. With an experimental evaporator I have been playing with and I have been getting temps below 47

(I want temps around 38 to 41 degrees F. maybe lower?; but the only reason I have not gotten lower temps is due to the expansion valve not feeding enough R137A liquid Freon into the evaporator because I am having problems with finding the RIGHT (TX) thermal expansion valves that fully adjusts superheat, THE condensers and compressor work fine) I have 4 more (TX) thermal expansion valves I will be testing this next week.
Note: I also found a new late model plate & fin evaporator that was made for another vehicle that fits inside the original 911 blower/evaporator plastic case I modified to work. It is about ¼ smaller in size then that of the original 911 evaporator but it is a more efficient design I am trying to make work; to get the temps I want. I may set it aside and try a serpentine evaporator and TX valve supplied by RennAir ?

[87911jon]

Subscribed, depending on price point I might be interested.

[KelogGes]

to give you a bit more background I wrote this recently to someone who replyed to an ebay test marketing ad I made


Because I am making these things custom and want to have my customers get what they want and know exactly what they will be getting; as well as trying to fit the slightly different installation each car has we will need talk. I care about people I do things for and want to do the best I can for them. Plus there can be several variables to consider to do the best for you.

I have a 1975 911 Carrera I have had more then 15 years; and as you probably know Porsche never designed the 911 1963 to 1989 early models body to accommodate an Air-Conditioning System and that it was only added as an afterthought due to Stuttgart engineering stupidity. Even using R-12 Freon they never got very cold like normal cars because of the very small condensers.


I am fully aware of what Rennair Porsche Air Conditioning & Jaguar Air Conditioning and Griffiths Porsche Air Conditioning, Porsche compressor, Porsche condenser, Porshe condensers, Porsche drier, Porsche driers, Porsche evaporaotr, Porsche evaporators,Porshe barrier hoses, Porsche air conditioning upgrades, Porsche air conditioning updates, Pors as well as others are doing; And I am not satisfied with the way they are using OLD A/C technology for Porsches to say the least After studying everything they are doing .

I am a marine engineer and a Yacht Captain, I work on some of the finest motor yachts in the world since 1968 with the latest technologies and where the owners money is no object. These yachts have very sophisticated multiple A/C systems I work on besides many other marine engineering things I do all the time regarding them. YACHTS ARE ALWAYS KEPT COLD for several reasons and must work all the time or millions of dollars of damage can result quickly.

I got into manufacturing these custom A/C condensers by accident; For almost 4 years now, since I discovered an article that was written in 2003 by a Japanese student working on his Masters or Doctorate Degree, who invented a new type of heat exchanger in 2003 and had it patented; that was at first called a BAM COIL and that later became known as Micro Channel and thereafter Superflow/Parallel Flow Heat Exchanger; I have been trying to buy one to fit my Porsche from anywhere in the world without success, I got angry and decided to make my own for myself. Now that I have been successful, what you see on eBay is my first advertisement for what is to be a new business making custom size aftermarket high tech condensers and heat exchangers

I actually have 2 different rear condensers I have made besides the front one advertisement you have seen in my ad on eBay, I have not shown yet.

The second of the 2 rear condenser I have made is basically done except for welding only for the connection fitting hose ends and testing it.

The first one I made is done and has been fully tested just fine. But I decided to make it far better than the first one I made to perfectly form fit it to the curves of rear trunk lid as well as make it even bigger to fully fit perfectly the rear deck lid intake air opening as well as have hose on both sides in the engine compartment instead of only on one side of the condenser.

I am hoping to start testing of my newest rear condenser prototype number 2, hopefully tomorrow Tuesday and if not then probably Wednesday
Because people will have different budgets I am thinking of offering 2 different rear condensers; one that is far more easy to produce and will be cheaper with connections ends on only one side and one (number II) the new one that is larger and perfectly form fitted to the inside of the rear deck lid with connections on both sides of the condenser to closer fit where the original hoses are.

The front one you see in my advertisement is slightly larger than the original dimensions of 5 inches width and is about 6 ¼ inches and should fit fine except maybe the front condenser stone guards might have to be modified a little to fit the larger size; but I can make them 5 inches wide for those that demand this; however I probably will also design a new stone guard for those that want one because my condensers are much thinner in thickness then the original size; I have a good used stone guard I bought to check fit for the front condenser and for purposes of modifying it as a template for a new stone guard I will probably make. I have not had time yet to deal with the stone guard but this can wait I do not think this will be an big issue


After putting new condensers I made on my car and being happy with my initial testing using my original tube and fin evaporator , I had gotten bogged down the last couple of weeks working on getting an evaporator, I am trying to make work to get vent air temps below 40 degrees after getting them down to 49 degrees; I want colder. My problem has not been the evaporator or condensers to get colder temps, it has been finding the right thermal expansion valve that puts or injects enough of the liquid R-134A freon gas into the evaporator. I want one I can get 31 to 41 degrees and I have just bought 5 or 6 TX VALVES to do this for testing. I am also testing Variable Valve Orifice Tubes and should successfully complete this testing this week. I WANT VERY COLD!!!

FYI; Rennair’s serpentine evaporator they sell for about $300 gets they say in their ads below 41 degrees to down in the low 30s and I know this is due to adjustments with The Thermal Expansion Valve they are using by making adjustments to the superheat setting on their TX valve; I am sure what they say is true regarding their evaporator temperatures, the one I am experimenting with is a Plate and Fin Type that ¼ smaller size Then Original and will get the same VENT TEMPS; But although I am close to finishing this it’s not done yet.

IF YOU want to also get an evaporator and cannot wait for me to get an acceptable at this time I would suggest Rennairs evaporator. The one I am experimenting with requires modification to the top of the evaporator blower motor case top because the connection lines on mine I am playing with are not in the right place to fit exactly the plastic case top and the top needed to be notched out a little to accommodate making connectionos to the one I am currently experimenting with . However Denso Compressor Manufacturer
Makes probably one of the latest technology in evaporators called “NEW MULTI-TANK DESIGN” and I am probably going to contact Denso to see if they make one near where I need the connections and also that will fit the plastic evaporator box.

Best regards,

[DRACO A5OG]

But won't being under 35 Degrees start freezing up the evaporator?

I got mine down to 18 degrees at ambient 70 degrees. I had to reduce my ES12A to bring it up to proper temps.

[KelogGes]

WoW people already wanting to know how much he he he

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

But won't being under 35 Degrees start freezing up the evaporator?

I got mine down to 18 degrees at ambient 70 degrees. I had to reduce my ES12A to bring it up to proper temps.

Draco did you use a partular TX valve (thermal expansion valve) and what did you do with it to get your temps so low? Did you adjust the superheat with the valve?

[KelogGes]

BTW THE PICTURE IS FOR A FRONT CONDENSER NOT A REAR ONE I will upload pictures of one of my latest form fitting contour rear ones soon

[KelogGes]

FYI i chose to release the existence of what I think are the first 1963 to 1989 vintage Porsche micro-channel condensers I just started making, here at Pelicans blogs because Pelican is such a wonderful place for years of good knowledge with so many helpful and friendly people sharing good information with each other and I think Pelican is a good company after buying from them myself. Please note: I have not talked with the owners of Pelican yet about marketing but probably will.

I came here also not only to share information about what I am doing, but more important to me is to also learn here from others because there are many who come here that share knowledge that are extremely knowledgeable. For us Porsche owners the knowledge that is presented here that Pelican Hosts, on many subjects is more then extremely invaluable

[ODDJOB UNO]

subscribed as its 118 degrees here in arizona.

[KelogGes]

This is pictures of my latest custom form fitted contoured 911 REAR condenser, it has squared micro channel tube types extrusions design which is the latest technology available to my knowledge at this point in time.

It only needs to have the a/c hose aluminum connection fittings welded to be finished so it can be tested, I should have finished hopefully on Tuesday or Wed.

Over the last few months I have already tried several REAR parallel-flow condensers each with different types of micro channel tube types design technology and they all work pretty good. This included several types of both round and square designed micro channel flat tube types extrusions. My first finished and tested condenser prototype was the smaller front one I show as my first picture here.

From what I have read now for several years of reading; Any micro channel parallel-flow condenser is considered to be 35 to 45 percent more efficient than any Tube & Fin condenser designed for the same application, and can be approximately ¼ size smaller to get this efficiency;

I have decided to just say (being cautious) my Porsche micro channel parallel-flow condenser is are 33 percent more efficient than any prior technology heat exchanger.


There are hundreds of laboratory exhausted testing available on the net going back to 2003 related to this new technology I have been reading about for about 4 years since I learned about it and started studying it.

If you are interested in the technology try to google “BAM COIL” or “microchannel heat exchanger” there is now much information that speaks for itself far better than I can.

[KelogGes]

[ODDJOB UNO]

well the bottomline here is testing. and since a "tropic climate" may be uncomfortable, when your dealing with desert temps of 118-124 from phx across to death valley and other areas, its down right deadly heat. and that means cars/trucks/people perish.


so with that fine thought in mind, you need to test those in real day to day heat,stop/go traffic/and on the highway here. because if a product can handle this heat, well i will buy it.


theres a real reason why so many mfgs. have proving grounds here.

[KelogGes]

sorry for the long lines above I thought they would rap I will try be more careful. I am just learning how to post here

[ratpiper71T]

well the bottomline here is testing. and since a "tropic climate" may be uncomfortable, when your dealing with desert temps of 118-124 from phx across to death valley and other areas, its down right deadly heat. and that means cars/trucks/people perish.





so with that fine thought in mind, you need to test those in real day to day heat,stop/go traffic/and on the highway here. because if a product can handle this heat, well i will buy it.





theres a real reason why so many mfgs. have proving grounds here.

Ditto on that here in the southeast. In addition to being microwaved by the sun, like in western climates you're steamed like broccoli in the shade. AC is necessary.
KelogGes perhaps you can explain to folks like myself,
Less
Knowledgable of refridgerant technology the advantage of this design compared to others. As a side note the rear condenser always makes me cringe- thinking of pulling already hot air, making it hotter and trying to cool the engine with it...

[Cloggie]

I think it is an excellent condenser.....looks very similar to the one that I am installing as part of the RetroAire system, in fact, it was the condenser that convinced me to go with Retroaire rather than some of the other set ups.

Mine is very light and small, and I gather if I believe the bumpf about it...they are also efficient.

Here is a pic of my install (as yet untested)


D.

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

well the bottomline here is testing. and since a "tropic climate" may be uncomfortable, when your dealing with desert temps of 118-124 from phx across to death valley and other areas, its down right deadly heat. and that means cars/trucks/people perish.


so with that fine thought in mind, you need to test those in real day to day heat,stop/go traffic/and on the highway here. because if a product can handle this heat, well i will buy it.


theres a real reason why so many mfgs. have proving grounds here.

Hello ODDJOB

I am originally from southern California and very familiar with the entire Mohave desert including Death Valley (Scotty’s Castel was fun to go to a few times) Death Valley is one of the lowest places on earth and I have seen ambient temperatures get above 125 degrees ouch. I have also several times been all over Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico in the summer ouch. So I know exactly what you are referring too.

You may not believe it but although The Mohave desert is extremely hot sometimes to say the least, air conditioners work better there then here in the tropics because it’s so dry there and evaporators work better there compared to here in the tropics due to the humidity coupled with lower temperatures here. To make A/C systems here work can be more challenging here to get an efficient system that puts out comfortable car temps. I am in Fort Lauderdale and although its hotter in the summer in Orlando for example, but due to the 91 degree’s summer day time and higher mixed with the extreme humidly we have here the heat index temps is equal or can exceed where you are and auto evaporators and condenser efficiency here is more taxed to produce acceptable vent temps. This being said any Porsche can be made cold if you read here what has been posted over the years there have been several successful projects. These projects help lead me to what I am doing with the latest technologies that as far as I know until now are not available like I am doing

Regardless both places have unique challenges to make an a/c system work good enough so it makes people driving comfortable and not sweating; both these reasons are exactly why I got into what I am doing in the first place; and I must tell you I am extremely happy with my progress. When I get time I will bring in the subject of TX valves (thermal Expansion valves verses VOV valves (variable orifice valves) for controlling vent temps to and from evaporators and also different types of evaporates, but please understand there are a few people here far more knowledgeable then I am.

Regardless AS I AM SURE YOU KNOW, those of US in these separate extreme heat climates, we want CLOSE TO ICE COLD CONSTANT VENT TEMPS THE COLDER THE BETTER and comfort not sweating anymore, and this is what lead me to do what I am doing

[DRACO A5OG]

Nope, nothing special, just OEM system with the ES-12A

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by Cloggie

I think it is an excellent condenser.....looks very similar to the one that I am installing as part of the RetroAire system, in fact, it was the condenser that convinced me to go with Retroaire rather than some of the other set ups.

Mine is very light and small, and I gather if I believe the bumpf about it...they are also efficient.

Here is a pic of my install (as yet untested)


D.

Hello Cloggie
it looks like to me the condenser ACKITs in Arizona that almost fits the air intake opening on a 911, but it's width too small to fully fit the opening the air intake opening. I know because I tried probably the same one of already before making my own and I still have it, here is a picture from when i tried it.

If you look very carefully on the right side where the upper a/c hose connects, I have used clear plastic to fully seal it, to only use the intake air vent inlet to take full advantage of the engine air blower forcing air through the micro-channel and fins.

I decided to stop using it because one it’s too small to properly fit the full with of the air intake opening, and furthermore from carefully looking at the condenser both before and after I installed it, ACKITS condenser seems to be only a single pass condenser; and the ones i am making are triple pass (3 refrigerant passes for better airflow cooling) condensers. Note: the more passes the refrigerants makes inside within the condenser the higher its efficiency.

On a further note what also bothered me after some thinking was that in using the ACKITS condenser because its height (top to bottom) is so much longer then
The opening for the air intake (is even much more then the stock OEM tube and fin condenser) this leave several rows of micro channel tub rows within the 180 degree or so hot engine compartment with no airflow on the lower part of the condenser before the Freon exits the rear condenser before going to the front one.

The whole purpose of any a/c condensers is to remove as much heat as possible caused buy compression in the compressor, so the newly formed high pressure gas on cooling through the condenser; changes phase from a gas to a liquid.

The last thing I want added any more then absolutely necessary is any heat from the engine compartment reducing the eficency of the rear condenser, and if there are rows of any lower parts of the condenser inside the engine compartment it made total sense these unneeded rows of micro channel degraded the efficiency of the parallel flow condenser .

My latest rear contour form fitted micro channel condenser fits the air intake opening perfectly and is far better than even the original OEM Porsche tube and fin condenser how it fits. All the micro channel rows are in the air intake airflow, there are no extra rows sucking up heat in the engine compartment anymore therefore I should work even better.

This is some of the logic I am using to develop my rear condenser to be as efficient as possible

Cloggie Your condenser will work ok I think so don’t feel bad from anything I said, any parallel flow condenser should work better then you had before!!

As I have not tested my new rear contour fit condenser I am wondering how much better it will improve the efficiency of my small front condenser, and even wondering if it might allow me to even stop using the front one?

Note: when I tried the ACKIT condenser temporarily and sealed it in so air did not flow around it but only through it from the engine air cooling opening of the lid, I did not notice an appreciable rise in engine temp, if there was any it seemed negligible

I know for a fact that normally the front condenser efficiency is very important for cooling at idle and stop and go traffic it will be interesting to see if this changes when I install my new rear condenser.