I've seen you use the "desert duty" term several times in several posts. If its a trademarked name, you cant use it even in conversation to describe your product unless you want to find yourself with cease and desist orders. ever notice the fine print on just about any site just by using the "Porsche" name to describe what a product fits? They arent just adding that language for kicks...
I was just pointing out that you shouldnt refer to your product as a "desert duty" anything... esp since that is a Rennaire product that is sold right here on Pelican.
of course im stupid and you knew that... sorry for mentioning it. your team of lawyers informed you I'm sure.

I notice that my 8-10 questions, that 10 people have asked at various times in your 2-3 threads still go unanswered.

This is like "The Housewives of Atlanta" (or whatever dumb show my wife watches that I hate) - If people quit watching then the show will stop......

I'm pretty sure if Pelican was around, Motor Sheister wouldn't have gotten so popular. Dont like it. Dont read it. There are alot of valid points raised.. and every time there is a hard question, a new sales pitch about something else is made. No one is attacking Reid. Answer the questions. prove your product works.. and you will not have any detractors. I'm all for innovation. But every question is avoided or answered in circles.

where do you see or read anything i have designed or made or prototyped yet for an intercooled 911 here???

I'll repeat a suggestion I made earlier -- Reid, when you have production versions ready for market, give a set to a Pelican who has remained out of this fray, and let him install the PFCs on his car and report back to the group. You're in a forum of DIY guys, so let a qualified DIYer install your products and report back to you and everyone else. If you're as confident in your products as you seem to be, then this is a no-brainer. It costs you a few dollars to produce the PFCs and ship them, but in the long run you'll get a beta-tester's report that will either support your claims or, well, not.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not angling for a free set of condensers. But there are plenty of other Pelicans who are knowledgeable a/c guys who would be good candidates to beta-test your products.

My $.02. Now, back to our regularly scheduled flame war! http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/fo...lt-popcorn.gif

Thanks Scott, I know your honestly trying to be helpful! I saw what you said before just did not reply. Been too busy

not sure Pelican gets involved with kind of thing like you suggest? Regardless I have other local interested 911 owners here already in the que to get their installs done that will be published

But fyi, I called and spoke to the person incharge of bringing in new products at Pelican over a week ago, AGAIN, to discuss listing my products, and he is SO BUSY working 2 jobs at once and said it will be a couple of weeks more before he can call me back to discuss things with him.

Not sure but thinking of maybe instead using someplace slse?

2 weeks plus waiting to talk to someone here and summer a/c few months prime season has already started

Who said anything about "intercooled" anywhere? (Except you, just now.)

Most respectfully; No dont have time and dont care too; there are literally thousands of other proof example technical papers that back up what i said, and the scientific papers of fact speak for Themselves, your welcome to contact the authors to discuss with them if that is your interest, their contact information is listed

LOL, Reid, LOL.

Ok. I'll answer for you, as it would appear that you didn't read or understand the information in that study.

What the research indicated was that two of the PFHX's had a condensation capacity of only 5% to 8% better than the CTHX,

One had a condensation capacity about the same as the CTHX,

Three had LOWER capacities, by roughly 9.5%, 17% and 20%.

The point here being, (and I would have thought you would be interested in this since you seem to be trying to design a condenser that works better than the original Porsche condenser) just because you are using a Parallel Flow Micro Channel Condenser does not mean that the condenser will actually perform better than the Original fin-and-tube condenser.

Why exactly did you link to that study?

my guess is that he didn't even read that study or if he did, didn't understand it, or perhaps hoped no one here would. I think it was mixed at best. Certainly isn't going to bolster sales.

i think in some applications it probably is better. I think every technology has its weak and strong applications... i would need to be convinced with extensive testing that it is truly better in the 911. Not just on paper... but in real world testing.

What do you say, Reid? and don't bring up your 37 degree vent temps to make your sale and tell us what problem you are solving. every system on the market achieves that...

Reid: I think you're missing my points. (A) This doesn't need to involve Pelican Parts. Simply connect with someone on the BBS and ship him the parts. It's a private transaction between you and him. (B) The concept here is an independent review of your PFCs and the claims you're making about them. "Local interest" is meaningless because you're involved in the process. For example (and, again, I'm not angling for free condensers), if you were to ship condensers to me in California, I'd install them, have a local a/c shop with Porsche expertise vacuum down the system and recharge it, and then I'd report back to you and the rest of the group. By taking yourself out of the process, you're giving the results credibility.

Frankly, as I said earlier, if your products are as good as you say they are, this should be a no-brainer. Your seeming unwillingness to have an independent review of the PFCs is troubling...and it will hinder your ability to win over the obvious skepticism you're battling here.

I have a customer who wants a matched set of my PFC's call me yesterday that lives in the desert and has ambient temps often exceed 115 F plus in the summer and I want to help him make his 911 cold so I am posting some things we are talk about here for him I will call some tips and tricks that were found here on Pelican

The black plastic evaporator box in the hot smugglers box is not insulated at ALL DUH! Here are some pictures of one type of insulation material that can be attached to the outside of the plastic case Rennair promotes, its insulation and insulating the outside of the plastic evap box will keep cold inside and keep heat outside far better then no insulation does. I personally do not like this insulation material for several reasons and much better insulation can be found on Ebay THAT IS thin BLACK material bonded to thin aluminium which has already has an adhesive on it RenAires type does not and is far better then what I have shown in the pictures. Anway the Ebay thin back insulstion for example is used for automotive speaker sound proofing and also for interier automotove passanger compartment both sound deadining as well as temperature insulation and is availible in either bright aluinum or in dull black and these I consider excellent; however you can also use simple black cork tape (used to insilate outside of thermal expansion valves) or cut sheets and can be found also be found at Grainger for example


Furthermore your evaporator in my opinion does not need to be replaced if its cleaned both inside and outside properly and will produce fairly good vent temps regardless of what many people say it needs to be replaced with serpintine evap etc

This post does not say the time of year or ambient temps were I suspect when he was in this 911 it was not during the months of June - October??? It was posted here by JFairman written 07-27-2008 here so I would guess his ride was before July? > http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/421983-c-expansion-valve.html

Note I live here in south Florida and because its Tropical Climate here its hot & humid enough all year that most people use their A/C's year round.

NOTE: I AM WELL AWARE of adjusting thermal expansions valves to adjust SUPERHEAT to get more liquid liquid refridgerent sent to the evaporator. Those of of US that have good knowledge how to make a/c systems here colder guard secrets and keep them private related to thermal expansion valve adjustment so I am not going to discuss TX valve adjustment here with anyone. If your interested in learning about superheat adjustment via thermal expansion valves go search with google and be prepared to do a lot of reading

DONT ASK ME ABOUT AJUSTING THERMAL EXPANSION VALVES I WILL NOT RESPOND TO THESE QUESTIONS

This is a complex subject to discuss and I am not going to here

================================================== =

Bingo!

And ^^^^^ just in time to prove your point. :)

so they are not spread over several pages

I have a customer who wants a matched set of my PFC's call me yesterday that lives in the desert and has ambient temps often exceed 115 F plus in the summer and I want to help him make his 911 cold so I am posting some things I want to talk about here for him I will call some tips and tricks that were found here on Pelican


When the air vents are lowered to run REALLY COLD to help prevent ICING for extended lengths of time, slightly below and above 32 F I believe it further helps insulating the black plastic evaporator box to help keep the evaporator temps stable from freezing as well as it also helps to further do some tricks to controlling the airflow inside the plastic box to force all incoming air THROUGH THE CENTER of the evaporator so no air flow goes around the outsides of the evaporator which further adds to the efficiency of the evaporator, this can be accomplished by a simple flat plate fabricated with a rectangular opening that is slightly smaller than the outsides of the evaporator the evaporator is set onto and is then sealed to the edges of the insides of the plastic box. This opening servers to more efficiently dump the moisture in the humid air out of the air into water and dropping it faster to the water/moisture condensate drain hole below the evaporator ; and furthermore even more importantly "greatly control the EVAP air movement ONLY THROUGH THE EVAP" and as little as possible going around the outer sides of the evap.

CBRacerX did a fairly good insulation job in preparing his smugglers box!

Making a 911 a/c system REALLY COLD takes a series of several small things and enhancements I call tips and tricks, and each ONE adds small bits to lowering the a/c temp colder and colder. What is nice about this is these tricks are fairly cheap in cost as far as material goes, if you Do all this prep work it can save you money a repair shop would charge you by the hour at shop rate in labor.

But most people just want to get their a/c job done asap so they can quickly get their 911 cold, and is why it ends up costing thousands of dollars for some people.

these are only a couple of tips and tricks that can be done to a 911 a/c system, there are several others that are well known, and again each one drops the a/c temp LOWER in bits and pieces

^^^ WTF?

This rambling is making me dizzy . . . have we now shifted from PFCs to evaporator efficiency?

Reid, at this point you've lost all credibility with me. You may have some valid insight to share, but the total lack of any organization to your communication makes it impossible to find.

If you truly want to discuss the technical merits of whatever the h&ll it is that you're trying to share, then I'd suggest you try to write more concisely and with greater clarity. The stream of consciousness that you've used so far only serves to confuse, and forces the rest of us spend our time trying to decipher what it is you're trying to say rather than focusing our attention on the relative technical merits of the topic.

At this point you've wasted far too much of my time. I'm out.

And you can't hardly beat Griff's serpentine evap for quality. It's a very nice piece.

You brought this up 20 pages ago. Why bring it up again?

This is old news. YAWN! This is one of the first things one does to their 911 AC system when upgrading to a decent evap.

This "plate" comes standard on the Griff Evap as part of the kit.

I wonder sometimes if the few people constanently dissing me here can properly READ English

My obsolete serpentine evap and condenser technology from Griffiths seems to be performing quite well. Ambient conditions in this pic 82 degrees at 50% evap fan speed. I can periodically get vent temps in the high 20's as well and I am using 134a. At 90 degrees I'm in the low to mid 40's.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1338560321.jpg

good for you and what did this old technology cost you?

I have gotten repetitively with only my 2 PF front and rear condensers remaining in the original OEM places and still using my original 1975 original OEM Behr tube and fin evaporator and some a/c system tweeking I have gotten similar temps down too and below 32F @ 95 f ambient 99% humidity without freezing, however I upped vent temp up to about 34 F to be safe in longer distance testing

Griffith Front condenser is $289.

Behr Rear condenser (OEM) $400.

So you can sell me your front and rear for $689?

for the SAME vent temps.

Nice

I read english. you have yet to comprehensively answer ANY of the valid questions or followup questions raised by about 15 people! and that is frustratating... and every day you are selling something new... I am not dissing you, nor is anyone else on here.. I am very supportive of an improved product. But if you are asked questions and your answer is to belittle them or provide 20 year old data that doesnt even answer the question, and you state as fact things that are proven FALSE or half truths, then what do you expect? Geez Reid, this is not rocket science. Many have been here before. My car is "upgraded" to the hilt with aftermarket products. I dont get any level of BS from Elephant Racing, or Griffiths Technical, or Don at EBS, or Steve at Rennsport, or Barry at IAE, or the three dozen others who have sold me things. I am not difficult to get along with unless i ask a valid question and the vendor gives me a load of BS as an answer or non-answer... when you are asked a hard question, answer it. dont jump to a totally unrealated topic.

example, you were called out on your research. instead of explaining in scientific terms, you avoid it, say you dont have to prove anything... you jump to evap efficiency. lol Reid. lol makes you seem like you havent a clue. um, if you want to sell ANYTHING, then YES you do need to prove it.

Quite frankly I am not answering questions to anyone here anymore that brings a negative or disrespectful attitude in their posts here, I am sorry your attitude has changed

Why so arrogant? You think someone would buy a product when they ask a question about your "research" when this is the response they get?

Why? Because you cant answer them? We are not in kindergarten. We are adults. Dont present your tech as superior if you cant explain it with more than a subject change or taking it as a personal attack. Its not a personal attack.

A summary --

Answers require real world testing not spectulation.

1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.

2. weight?

3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology?

4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289?

5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point.

6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered?

7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top auto manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM.

8. Fans vs No Fans?

9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility.

10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution.

11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

Its really not that hard to just answer the questions... if this is just an R&D post then fine. Say that. Dont tell us over and over again you will be selling them shortly if you cant answer these very basic questions...

Brad - I think that this portion of your post should be in reply to every new claim that Reid makes. Or in response to anyone who posts in these AC threads where Reid is trying to market his gear. That way, there is no question that the post is on-topic (technical forum, technical questions), and let his own posting style do the rest.

I don't think Reid realizes that respect in matters technical is *earned*, not merely bestowed. That's one of the reasons that Griff has the reputation he does. Product, knowledge, service.

This thread has hit bottom and has started to dig!

Unsubscribed.

Reid, I don't think this is a matter of "us" not being able to read, or even fully comprehend what we read, provided there is a reasonable level of coherency in what you write.

Perfectly stated.

This IS One from several of “THE VERY LATEST STATE OF THE ART PFC”
 

FYI If you’re interested in i.e “THE VERY LATEST STATE OF THE ART PFC” Check this puppy out, “I did not design this”, but will probably adapt its technology if it’s possible into some things I am planning in the future if legal agreements can be worked out.

New PFC technologies are being invented faster than I can keep up with them, a new type PFC state of the art technology seems to come out every week, why anyone would want old technology is something I have zero interest in. But to each their own!

FYI If you’re interested in i.e “THE VERY LATEST STATE OF THE ART PFC” Check this puppy out this is only one from many I am interested in possibly for the future, “I did not design this”, but will probably adapt its technology if it’s possible into some things I am planning if legal agreements can be worked out.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1338663093.jpg

KelogGes

I've read some of this thread and find lack of credibility with you do to your refusal to have answers available for reasonable questions.

Now after the statement about why someone would want old technology, I really have trouble with your credibility.

1. These old 911s that you supposedly have a superior ac product for are old technolgy.

2. Alot of old technolgy is proven to work.

Just my .02
Dean

I am not or have not been refusing to answer ANY reasonable questions to anyone seriously interested in what I am doing and the parallel flow micro channel heat exchanger technology I am using!

First I want to say, I am busy and cannot always answer a question as fast as someone may want but this does not mean I will not answer it

Second, I am not going to interact anymore with the few people here dissing me, or have negative attitudes about the technology I am using and are promoting older technology, and as far as I am concerned they can just go sit in the corner as I am wasting no more of my time with them. I am sick and tired of having anything and everything I post here about anything no matter what it is and being attacked by what I consider THREAD FLAMES and Nay Sayers and Disrespectful individuals

i.e. wwest, SilberUrS6, that came into this tread a year ago right after I started it and caused me to become irritated have been dissing me ever since poisoning this tread, and there are others who came along later that also truly have no true interest in this tread other than that keep hanging out here as a place to waste my time and the truly interested people who come here time.

Regrettably a few people due to their constant dissing and disrespect in their posts here at me, have caused me to get a negative attitude after almost a year posting my progress and what I have been doing and keeping a good attitude. Normally in life I always have a good and positive attitude that due to my irritation from a few people has been temporally soured, and what you are noticing is me pulling back from interacting with only a few people here.


BTW: I have never said old technology does not work, it does! If your interest is older technology then keep using it and don’t bother me with it;

This tread is specifically about Parallel Flow Condensers the latest technology and what I am doing and designed for 911’s that has the highest performance and or efficiency available in the world today for R-134A

I would like to respectfully ask the long time readers here to stop re-quoting posts here if they want to say something; unless it is truly needed because there is no need to do this,

anyone reading here already read the original post and this tread is being filled and clogged with unnecessary repeated quoted posts over and over and this makes this tread very difficult for new or old readers to read here and have to wade through all any on topic posts by others.

When you post here try to have some consideration to others to what you are doing, it’s gotten so bad lately I have been missing posts written to me wading through the crap un-needed re-quoted posts

LMAO! Reid, I would respectfully ask you to do the same.

Pot, meet kettle. Discuss.

can you make one for 964?

1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.

2. weight?

3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology?

4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289?

5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point.

6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered?

7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top auto manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM.

8. Fans vs No Fans?

9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility.

10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution.

11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

You might wish to follow your own advice here.

Further, the questions asked are relevant to your proposed product and are technical in nature. They are going to be asked over and over by different people in different ways. Refusing to answer them because they come from people who find your approach to be strange isn't going to make the questions go away. In fact, if there had been answers way back when I first asked questions in this thread, I might have a higher opinion of your proposed product. Like, how much will these condensers cost? Cost/performance ratio is an important consideration to anyone who actually cares about money (everybody). And some third-party report on how they work? Perferably some Pelikaner. That would go a long way to cutting through the marketing hype about how great and wonderful your proposed product will be. Most of us here live in the U.S.A., and are awash in marketing hype all day long. You consider this "dissing". I consider it being a smart consumer. Maybe you think you can use the MotorMeister model for your Porsche business, but I don't think that'll fly. Just a guess on my part.

It appears to me, probably as a result of what he has LEARNED here, that Reid is retargeting his product toward "fender cats". Basically still his "new" condensors but mounted elsewhere, other than the rear deck lid and front "chin", and inclusive of a good high volume fan.

His problem, as I see it, is the existing, proven, and very well established competition. So he will either need to radically under-price the competition in order to get a decent level of sales, or provide proof of additional, satisfactory, cooling capacity/efficiency.

Given that the products already available in the marketplace appear to solve that latter issue quite well we may be able to buy Reid's product on the "cheap".