I think that is a logical progression. But considering Reid's approach to his potential market, especially those folks who want more than unproven claims, I doubt he'll have much success at any price point. Again, this is the MotorMeister business model. Lots of big claims, and a low price. What could possibly go wrong? :)

Hello Vinyl,

I am currently in the process of designing and engineering new prototypes for 964's, turbo's, and for individuals with special needs in very hot climates of 100 F. plus degrees that require additional fender or front side bumper condenser units.

I strongly believe from my experiences after extensive testing installed in my 1975 911 last summer during ambient temperatures of 95 F and very high humidity’s using only my PFC’s in front lip and rear deck lid matched sets configuration within the OEM original places with my PFC’s in all kinds of driving situations that

Unfortunately, I will not be shipping my PFC's outside of North America for anytime soon so I won't be able to help you

LOL. Well there you have it boys and girls... LOL Only took us 483 posts.

Should target 90 plus. 100 plus limits you to Arrizona and New Mexico. Most of us live in the Mid 90's all summer.

1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.

2. weight?

3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology?

4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289?

5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point.

6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered?

7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top auto manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM.

8. Fans vs No Fans?

9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility.

10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution.

11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

I don't think 964's have an air conditioning problem. They are what we with older cars aspire to.

Ac
 

I have lived and drove a 911 in both South Florida and in the Fort Worth area.

There is a very large difference between making an ac system like the one on a 1974 through 1989 911 function on a satisfactory level in 100 degree plus weather based on the assumption that just vecause it works at 92 to 95 degrees.

The air temp in south florida very rairly goes over 95 and the temp drops soon after sun down. Here is Texas it does not cool off until 5:00am

Just because it works in s florida does not mean it will work in Texas or anywhere in the s west

+1

that is why he needs extensive testing, in more than south florida. I go to the florida key west to get away from the sweltering heat and humidity of Houston.. believe it or not... Alot of miscalculations on this thread.



11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

WOW, well said . . . I have lived in the Dallas TX area for around 20 years (and this time of year really wonder why) and it is still difficult to comprehend that one can go outside at +/- 12:00 in the evening and it is still 90+ outside (not quite there yet but it is getting close) and that the humidity here is so thick that your clothes are damp if you are outdoors for more that 30 seconds! "Summer" begins here in late March and continues until November (I **** you not, Sept. and Oct. are hot as hell around here) . . .

This would be an excellent environment to put these condensers and evaporators to the test!

Another factor is heat soak. I have my system pretty dialed in and I'll get very comfortable vent temps in 105*+ when pulled out of the garage. If the car has been sitting in the sun for any length of time (i.e. when at work), it takes it a full 15 minutes to get the same vent temps. My commute is 20 min, so I get to enjoy the last five minutes before I'm pulling into the garage!!

This is with the single PFC rear condensor from Retro Air (no additional fan) and stock front condensor BTW.

This is a great point. I too have a pretty dialed in system, and i dont even drive it between 11-4 unless I know I am parking in a garage or shade. with a triple black car there is just no point.

A car cover allows you to park with windows down to avoid heat gain. It also eliminates paint problems from rain and birds.

Exactly...

Do a comparison on Ft Laudedale and Dallas, San Antonio, Houston at 1 am.
Its actually pretty crazy.

I lived in Planatation FL right near Ft Lauderdale and they have not seen heat.. I go to S Florida for relief. That ocean breeze changes the entire equation.

Of course if Reid actually tested this product with idependant pelicans in Dallas, San Antonio, Phoeniz, etc... (Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates). where he would allow the person to report the true performance, good or bad... he would be able to answer my question 11 and 12 above.

AC system
 

T have replaced my hoses, added a pro cooler, serpentine evaporator, and a para ell condenser and have 38 degree vent temps on a 100 plus day. Ido not know what this guy is selling but it is already hardware is already out there.

If I park my car in the sum on a 100 plus day my system will cool it down but it is a chore. The next change I am going to make is a stronger fan to get the cool air into the cabin.

Yes. Mine cools it too even after being in the sun. But I like it cold. :) and i dont want to wait 15 minutes.

As an aside. The Keuhl fan is GREAT. It is absolutely required to take full advantage of the better Evap and Condensers.

If the A/C compressor is NOT cycling on/off in the 100F plus initial cool down effort then additional airflow will be of no help. That would be an indication that the compressor/condensor is "struggling" to get, and keep, the evaporator down to ~35F.

On the other hand if the A/C compressor IS cycling on and off then the evaporator is getting "over-chilled", excess cooling capacity not being used, and more airflow is justified.

Assuming, of course, that the thermostatic capillary tube is properly positioned within the evaporator core to "just" prevent freeze up.

I think he is talking about the evap blower, not a condensor blower.

I have Retro Air's upgraded evap blower and it is a BIG help. It might not help drop vent temps, but the additional air blowing on you from the vents helps your own body's factory air conditioning (sweat evaporating cooling) do it's job. Especially in lower humidy heat.

If the compressor never cycles off during an/the initial cooldown period then that is a sure sign that the evaporator isn't being chilled to the MAX. In which case adding evaporator blower volume will not be of much help except in the case you bring up, additional human body metabolism cooling capability.

The sad news is that with higher blower speeds the system's ability for dehumidification is lowered, maybe even to zero.

In theory yes.

But the factory fan generate so little air that even if you had 32 degree air 100% of the time, there just inst enough airflow if the outside ambients are over 92.

For kicks go sit outside on a 95 degree day in front of an industrial fan vs a little round desk fan and tell me what makes you feel cooler.. regardless of the temp of the actual air.

I think that with additional condensers, fans on those fender condensers, and better evap, you need a higher output fan to fully maximize the addional efficiency of the overall system.

Of course my proof isnt scientific... but with factory fan i sweat and with Kuehl i dont. that has to count for something... Furthermore the ambient temp in the back seat with the kuehl is 15--20 degrees lower. There is an definite lack of adequate airflow with the factory fan.

My statement does not really address the adequacy, or not, of any fan, factory or no, just states a condition wherein adding additional evaporator airflow volume would not provide additional cooling capability

*** As is most likely, more likely than otherwise, the case of the overall "total" of the factory design. Not enough capacity to keep the evaporator fully chilled (~35F "target") during initial cooldown on anything beyond a moderate temperature day.

Keep in mind that the 911's A/C is a re-circulatory system, and the more air that is pulled from the cabin and cooled through the evaporator, the faster the 32* condition at the the evap can occur for the system to start cycling. I see the point WWEST is getting at, but still believe the stock blower fan is woefully inadequate.

Personally, in AZ summer heat, I don't see that condition happening, at least without additional condensers. But when I've walked for 10 min from an air conditioned office in 110* to get to my car that is probably 125* inside, 70* vent temps with lots (for a 911 anyway) airflow feels pretty damn good!!

Last Word
 

I believe that by using a car cover, or windshields blinds, tinting the windows along with the existing hardware that is already available through sources that are pr-oven to carry quality products the ac system in a 1974 to 1989 911 can be modified to handle 100 degrees plus temps but...............Why not stick with a pr-oven source that has been vetted through reliable sources.

If it sounds to good to be true...................................

The problem "here" is that we have as yet been given no way to judge if it sounds to good to be true...

In point of fact the reverse is more true than otherwise. Reid's product is likely no better than competing products having long been in the market, plus proven to be reliable and reasonably priced.

questions
 

questions questions questions

I have been EXTREMELY BUSY working on NEW THINGS to say the least!

I will answer questions previously presented here in the last few days

your going to have to wait untill I can find the time to answer them

I hope that some of the new things you are working on would be acquiring test data on your equipment as to pressure drop across the working condenser (to get an idea of actual working efficiency) and comparison test data using OEM and/or current aftermarket offerings. Or, failing that, actual instructions for those DIY folks who want to bolt stuff in.

If you're going to answer the questions with more theoretical discussion not based on anything you yourself have done, my suggestion is that it will not be well-received by your potential target market.

It's a tech forum - let's have some actual tech.

Howdy Josh,

Thanks for joining my PFC discussion; Finally a PFC believer <grin> has come here actually personally using a 911 rear deck lid PFC

Be so kind to Tell the folks here your engine oil temps when your ambient temps are 105 and your running only one rear deck lid PFC and your vent temps

These old technology serpentine promoters here just don’t get it they have been brainwashed LoL, the only thing they seem they can talk about is their justification to promote what they have spent their money on and are now stuck with old technology and nay say PFC’s

Josh I know quite a bit about the Retro Air PFC your using, from when I was doing my research before I designed my own PFC I did extensive testing on the same PFC your using, unfortunately you paid a lot more for from Retro Air you could have gotten it far cheaper from where Retro Air gets theirs from (smile) AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Parallel Flow Condensers - Aluminum

The picture of PFC below came from ackits.com, I purchased for PFC testing, evaluation and comparison purposes. I believe is the same PFC you got from Retro Air, it works I guess OK if you have nothing better in your 911 deck lid, but it HAS FAR LESS Efficient/Performance then what I have designed and manufacture (note if anyone wants this same PFC, I will sell it for less than I paid for it FROM ACKITS)

Before I engineered and designed and had made my own PFC I got angry after trying several already available universal size PFC’s found on the internet including the one like you have because I could not simply buy a PFC that would give me good enough efficiently/performance and the exact sizes I knew I wanted/needed to make a really cold 911 using state of the art PFC technologies! The one like you have I also have proved to me after thoroughly testing it worked but not quite good enough to make me happy. I used this same PFC you have in my deck lid, and alternately with my OEM Behre tube and fin and with a few other PFC’s for testing my first 911 Front chin custom designed PFC I made. FYI having an additional front chin PFC makes a big difference compared to having only a rear Deck Lid PFC only, and even more so to say the least in all kinds of driving conditions, stop and go driving and extended idling etc.

As I am sure you probably have noticed by now in your 911 @ 105 ambient F you’re a/c works finally works pretty good (smile), for me I wanted better than pretty good, I wanted as cold as possible using only a/c condensers made to fit the 911 original places Porsche USED and I also wanted my 911 a/c system temps to be very comfortable in ambient temps over 100.

Note: although our ambient temps here in our tropical summer are only 95 F and 99 % humidity daily and “sometimes night and day around the clock for weeks”; As I am sure you know from where you live when you have afternoon ambient temps above 90 F and your car is sitting in the sun or shade and inside your passenger compartment when you first open the door can easily be over 160-180? F Plus and you feel this 160 F Plus interior radiated heat before you step inside with the door first opened and you wait a bit for some HOT to escape before sitting inside <grin>; Because of this I wanted my interior to cool down as fast as possible and why I wanted my a/c colder then it needed to be to reduce the time for the cab interior to cool down to the first block or mile or so of driving, in other words so I was not sweeting <grin> because I usually a lot of short distance driving here when the Ambient temp temps are hottest i.e. going for lunch or to the store, etc. I have accomplished my goal objective last July in my old daily driver 75 911, easily getting 32-33 F during 95 F plus ambient using my front clip PFC and my rear countour deck lid PFC and furthermore proudly say getting 34 F constant air vent temps

Josh if I can help you with any of the knowledge I have learned after a lot of testing with PFC’s to make your air vents colder I would be more than happy too, i.e. sealing in your rear deck lid PFC, evap, etc., to make things work more efficient than it currently does

Below is a testing PFC I bought from ackits.com that is the same also sold I believe by Retro Air for a much higher inflated price



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1339187578.jpg

Another quality LOL post, Reid. [applause]

YOU HAVE BEEN DISSING ME FOR A YEAR!

I want nothing to do with you! stop requoting everything I say here about anything no matter what it is!


Take your **** attitude out of here
why do you not just go away and waste your time someplace else here at Pelican,

take this to the bank you will never have anything I make or do!

Posted here in this tread by Wayne at Pelican Parts
CEO, Pelican Parts Inc.

I am trying very hard to follow Waynes advice and expect others here to do the same but unfortunately we have a few people with intent to damage this tread!

If you can not do this please find other places to go to away from here.

Let's start at the bottom, shall we?

1.) I don't think you have to worry too much about me wanting whatever you're selling. If you ever do indeed sell anything.

2.) As a matter of technical interest, I'm waiting for you to publish something other than vague theoretical advantages of what your potential product might or might not be able to provide for the cars in question. I am very interested in TECHNICAL DATA. This is the 911 technical forum, right? Hard to have a technical discussion without having hard data. Of course, thats why this forum exists, and why we're all here. And how I spend my time is not your concern. But I do appreciate that concern nonetheless.

3.) I selectively quote, Reid - I almost never requote an entire post. That's bad form. FTR, the stuff I quote from you is often the funny, ironic or hypocritical stuff. Like the complaint from you about reposting, when you're posting the same post in three separate threads. That's comedy gold right there.

Actually, I've been seriously questioning your product for about two months. My first concern, way back when, was that you supposedly had this stuff for sale, but there was no report from anyone that had actually purchased the product, nor did there seem to be any particular way that someone could actually buy something from you. I was actually interested in the product at that time. But the more I read, and the less you said, the less interested I became in your product. Currently, I am only interested in the comparison of your product vs. what is actually available on the market.

This is not "dissing". I do laugh a little when you complain about posters doing exactly what you yourself have done - that funny in any circumstance. But actively seeking actual results and seeking to get hard data is not anything close to "dissing".

I'm going to keep asking the questions until they get answered, Reid. And no worries, I won't be trying to buy anything from you. After all, you can't buy what isn't for sale, right?

Wayne's advice is good. I suggest you take it.

KelogGes, Thank you for your time and efforts in developing an updated A/C system for our cars.

It is unreal how rude you have been treated here. This is normal fair for Pelican, doesn't make it right.

1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.

2. weight?

3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology?

4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289?

5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point.

6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered?

7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top auto manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM.

8. Fans vs No Fans?

9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility.

10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution.

11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.

2. weight?

3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology?

4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289?

5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point.

6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered?

7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top auto manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM.

8. Fans vs No Fans?

9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility.

10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution.

11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.

2. weight?

3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology?

4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289?

5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point.

6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered?

7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top auto manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM.

8. Fans vs No Fans?

9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility.

10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution.

11. Engine temps. With Factory AC, With your AC. Same ambients/humidity. Side by side comaprison in 4-5 different climates.

12. What about that research you posted that is mixed at best against the original design and doesnt even apply to serpentine. Where is the Serpentine vs your product research? data? real world testing? side by side comparisons? We have NEVER seen it!

douglas. wouldnt you want my 12 questions answered before making an informed decision? this is a tech forum. Ive yet to see ANY tech except 20 year old parts lists, unsubstantiated claims that cant be proven, and articles that are neutral at best.. if he answers my 12 questions, the skeptics will be answered... his avoidance of the questions are why we are still talking about this at all! questions 11 and 12 involve real world testing. real world does not equal his car and his buddies car down in S Florida.

the only "updated" (from factory) system (that means complete kit) is made by Retroaire, Griffiths and Rennaire.

I never saw Reid's "system". in fact he keeps telling us all he isnt selling anything at all...

This also makes an assumption - that there actually will be a product for purchase. He might be trying to gauge market size with all this posting, and deciding on whether or not to go into production.

Speculation, of course. But since RetroAire already does a rear PFC condenser, why not just go with them?

Stalker much? What is wrong with an entrepenuer testing the waters to see if interest will support production?

Just answer the damn 12 questions., LOL