Did you seal the bottom of the engine compartment, too? If not, then the fan has plenty of air to suck that doesn't go through the rear condenser.

Good point; the seal around the engine sheetmetal is easy to overlook, but mine is in good shape. In my case, the engine fan only sucks air through the rear decklid and A/C condenser. If I use the hand throttle to set the engine RPM @ 3000, and then hold my hand over the air inlet of the rear deck lid (while it's closed), it really sucks a lot of air. I can not feel air entering the engine compartment anywhere else around the decklid or through the seal on the top of the license plate panel (this is also in good shape on mine).

Bottom line - it's getting max possible airflow, so the above averge high side pressure I am seeing from my AC on a hot day is most likely caused by a very efficient compressor, coupled to an inefficient (by today's standards) condenser.

Theoretically, I believe KellogGes' modern paralell flow condenser will shed a lot more refrigerant heat, than my old school tube/fin condenser, and hence lower the high side pressure. I just hope that someone who has actually bought and installed one of these things can confirm any of this from their own experience. Some feedback on the construction quality, how well it fit, and whether or not it was delivered on time as promised would also be helpful.

I love the long hood 911's, and when I built my A/C system, there were no "modern" options for the rear condenser, so if this one fits and works as I believe it should, it will be a real benefit to a lot of long hood owners out there. Grifiths and Rennair make some great retrofit kits, but the rear condenser has always been the weak link IMHOP, and this one could be the cure. Beyond that, I believe getting more air through the evaporator is the next step to optimal cabin air comfort (as several of the previous posts have aluded to here)

I would also love to hear from an actual customer. Being able to replace the lines, compressor, drier and condensers only to get reasonable temps would be great.

Reasonable being in the 40-50F range with R134a.

I am considering the purchase of a 87 Turbo Cab and the AC is weak at best. With the local climate (temps usually in the mid 80s to 100ºF, average humidity ±80%), a great working AC is a must. Please let us know the progress on this and if there are any actual users of it.

I too am anxious to read reviews from an actual user of this product.
I suspect it works great, or at least better than stock, but I want to know if the results are worth replacing the existing hardware with these MC condensers.

To KelogGes.
Haven't heard from you in awhile. How is the manufacturing going ? Do you have any customers on the street with your setup that could tell the rest of us how it is working ?

Whatever happened with these condensers? Were they ever produced, and did anyone install one?

Engine lid blower fans proved to be not only less expensive, a LOT less expensive, but also more effective, improved the efficiency of the engine lid condensor rather dramatically, regardless of engine RPM operating range, vs the new condensor.

Not much market in the current economy for snake oil.

any news on these yet?

R S 911 new design & testing coming
 

RS 911 new front & rear PFC's design & testing coming

bare with me I am still editing what I will say about this

Best Regards

Reid

PORSCHE RS AMERICA Parallel Flow Micro-Channel A/C Condensers
 

PORSCHE RS AMERICA 3.6L 1994 with modified FIBER body kit 1972 RS AMERICA retro look

Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Front & Rear Condensers RSA TEST CAR

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1331723447.jpg

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CONDENSER TESTING

PICTURES AND DISCUSSION TO FOLLOW STAY TUNED

Reid,

Great timing. Was just going to get with you.

I have almost the same exact car (no lights on the hood) down to the ducktail and 3.6.

Are you making any changes to the condensors or just fitting them in a test car?

Thx,

Joe A

this post is going nowhere unless we can get a real world report on the micro fin condensors. I make EV/HEV/PHEV battery packs for all types of electric vehicles and we have investigated everything from peltier coolers to thermo pads all of them have good and bad points. I want to know how effective these condensors are on a car.

I agree. A real-world customer with before and after temperature data. Otherwise, our host or Griffith's or Retro-Aire or some company with a history of making and supporting good products.

I might take a chance on a new product if the price was right. But I'd still want to hear about it from someone unaffiliated with the maker/seller.

Howdy Joe it’s been awhile; how have you been?

I don’t like the hood lights either (smile)

I know your RS is very very similar to this one I have been thinking about you for some time and knew you would like to know about this RSA and what we are doing to it to make it COLD !

FYI; The retro body kit was made by David Bouzaglou TRE Motorsports in California for a Miami Florida client David contacted me about several months ago; that is not far from me in Fort Lauderdale as you know; to see if I could help with his client's A/C problems or with someone I know near me; as the car had several issues that needed addressing I suggested to David he contacted Justin Stokes at Stokes Automotive because its complicated repairs to fix what someone else did "DUH" that had to be removed and repaired that didn’t make COLD (smile) , and to make a long story short (I will write all about it with pictures in the coming days)

Anyway about your questions:

I have changed and improved my rear PF contour condenser connection fittings to more closely match OEM's you will like better I think;

wow what a pain it was to do this compared to my much simpler and easier to manufacture original rear contour fitting design & manufacture; I had several welders I have tryed to use that are good welders; damage several of my prototypes PFCs, that cannot properly weld them to say the least without damaging them, which caused great delays and caused me a lot of money in damaged condensers; regardless I have this now worked out to where I am finally satisfied.

FYI ON this RSA THE Front PFC will sit vertical behind or within the RSA front rectangular air opening (and not underneath horizontal like most 911s) to take advantage of the AIRFLOW hitting the front bumper air-intake area opening. Justin is rushing too much here also and the front PFC won’t have a fan installed which I think is a mistake for stop and go driving!

I am not doing this install; I am busy working on a Motor Yacht at the moment doing engineering work;

Justin is doing the install and I think he is rushing the job just to get it done a bit to much. But its not my shop and I am not in contact with the RSA owner and probably won’t be until after the job is done?

I know that Justin will do a pretty good job and the car will get cold and I see what he is doing and it is undersandable from his perspective, considering what he is being paid for the work and the amount of time he will spend to do the work.

If I were doing this install myself the time it would take me would not matter to me at all!!! Just because the car got cold would not be good enough for me I would only accept REALLY REALLY COLD at or below 30 F or so using R134a and I already have a very good idea from all the testing I did last summer on my 1975 911 Carrera getting constant air-vent temps 31-33 F at the hottest part of the summer South Florida afternoon without clouds with record high temp of 95 F and 90=100 % humidity and at the same time with 30 air holes in my floorboards, driver wind wing glass broken out pieces and wide gaps in the replacement drivers door; sheet metal holes letting in hot air in the smugglers box below the plastic evaporator case that were there I just discovered a few weeks after I was doing test runs with the these air-vent temps I had during the South Florida highest record temps EVER, etc., etc.

Regardless I am sure the RSA owner will be very happy with Justin's work and the A/C temps he will get using my PFC's will be very cold.

Joe I just found out the other day from Justin that 1990 plus compressor is I somehow controlled (computer or other means) to shut off the compressor clutch in I think somewhere in the high 40s F,

(Justin does not plan to do anything about this he told me today on this RSA hmm hmm)

From our discussions I know you are into R-12 and I know using R-12and with my PFS's as such I would expect your vent temps to go down very easy constant in the low teens F or below down to 0F to control A/C freeze ups ; how are you expecting to rectify this RSA thermostat control problem and your thoughts on this for your RSA??

I am not doing this install stokes automotive is for a third party client
 

This 1994 RS AMERICA RETRO LOOK PORSCHE IS OWNED BY SOMEONE I DO NOT KNOW OR I HAVE AS YET NEVER TALKED TOO OR MET THAT LIVES IN SOUTH FLORIDA !!!

The owner of this car is a client of David Bouzaglou TRE Motorsports in California for a South Florida client David contacted me about several months ago; that is not far from me in Fort Lauderdale; to see if I could help with his client's A/C problems or with someone I know near me that does high quality Porsche 911 work, after David read some of my posts here about my custom designed and made for Porsche 911's PFC's ; as the car had several issues that needed addressing and I do not fix Porsches for other people I suggested to David he contacted Justin Stokes at Stokes Automotive a highly respected 25 plus years Porsche expert repair facility, because its complicated repairs to fix what someone else did that had to be removed and properly repaired, that didn’t make COLD A/C (smile) , and to make a long story short (I will write all about it with pictures in the coming days)

Several people here that are interested in my condensers have been recently asking for test results of my condensers which is fully understandable

Note: Although Justin Stokes that Owns Stokes Automotive is a personal friend of mine for 20 years; I DO NOT WORK FOR STOKES AUTOMTIVE even though I did most of my prototype work using his shop including my reported here testing etc., Justin Stokes Has had no hand in my PFC's work at all; and furthermore was rather skeptical and still remains so until he does his own installations and preparation etc of my PFC's and proves it to himself.

JUSTIN STOKES & STOKES AUTOMOTIVE IS DOING ALL THE A/C WORK ON AND TESTING ON THIS CAR; I DO NOT WORK FOR JUSTIN STOKES OR STOKES AUTOMOTIVE; WE HAVE NO BUSINESS OR FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH OTHER IN ANY WAY!

Best Regards,

Reid

Off Topic Messages
 

PLEASE DONT POST OFF TOPIC MESSAGES HERE

The subject is Porsche 911 PF Condensers and their discussion

Nothing is actively being marketed in this channel

keep your posts on topic keep it nice & keep it friendly

OR SIMPLY GO AWAY!

1989 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet PFC's COMING SOON TEST RESULTS
 

I have been contacted by an owner from Miami with a 1989 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet after he read my posts here at Pelican that is interested in my PFC's technology & COLD A/C and expect the CAB to be brought to Stokes Automotive very soon and Justin Stokes to make the CAB COLD soon after THE RSA is completed.

I am only supplying the A/C condensers

I expect this 89 CAB will be a good candidate for an R134A PFC test case

Stay tuned

Insofar as I am aware no one is disputing the possibility that your solution might well work. But on the other hand the simple addition of a couple of 12 volt fans to provide consistent cooling airflow through the rear lid mounted condensor might well be not only be a much simpler and dramatically less expensive solution, but while at the same time providing even more system cooling efficiency than your EXPENSIVE solution.

At the same time the additional engine cooling capability provided by the engine lid mounted fans, might, immediately, "post" a period of HIGH engine output would be most definitely advantageous.

You can't win, the internet makes access to information, adverse even, 'way too readily available, so if anyone should go AWAY, it should be YOU.

"..Nothing is being actively marketed on this channel..."

My apologies in advance for being harsh, but...

BULL****!

LOL, nice.

You say "expensive" - define "expensive" in U.S. dollars, please.

R S A RETRO rear contour PFC condenser stokes automotive CUSTOM install
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1331897832.jpg

This is Justin Stokes custom install work in progress of my latest version Rear PFC into the rear RSA retrofit fiberglass decklid

Note: Its not finished yet and needs to be sealed better etc;

R S A RETRO Front condenser installation prep by STOKES AUTOMTOIVE
 

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R S A RETRO front condenser INSTALL prep by STOKES AUTOMOTIVE
 

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Joe read this about black plastic air intake cover outer-mounting support NUTS
 

Joe look carfully at this photo of TRA Motors Decklid for this RSA especially the outer corners inside the engine compartment of the air-intake and notice the AIR INTAKE CORNERS Fastener NUTS


RS RETRO BODY PARTS made by TRE Motorsports Inc, Van Nuys, Ca; TRE Motorsports

IS THIS THE SAME AS YOURS OR IS YOURS DIFFERENT???

"These 4 outer corner thru-bolt "NUTS" fasen the NON-OEM (& not perfect copy) black plastic air TO THE DECK LID" and create a bit of a problem not allowing my rear countour PFC not to fit perfect to the sheetmetal and make it easy to only add some rubber molding to have my PFC perfectly seal air tight; like it is desinged to do on an OEM decklid that uses a whale tail

NOTE: in comparing tre motorsports ("not perfect OEM air intake dimensions") rear RSA retro-fit duck tail deck lid in order to properly perfectly seal the PFC creates a challange to perfectly seal the PFC to the deck lid; and requires extra time; special custom made faseners; and/or several other options that can be engineered and/or some slight decklid inner modiffication

I do not know yet if your decklid body parts are the same or different yet than this one? regardless we will have to talk about ENGINEERING PFC FIT of the components voice to make it easier for both of us; I dont have tons of hours typing engineering we can probably do in a few minutes talking; there are several ways to tackle an engineering installation all of which would bring acceptable results.

I firmly believe from my personal testing for many months last summer DAY AFTER DAY including through the highest South Florida record high ambiant temps records that were broken during my tests, to get highest efficencely from my rear PFC it needs to be completly sealed to the deck lid air intake to allow as much outside air (all the outside air entering the engine compartment) as MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO BE FORCED THROUGH >> the PFC micro-channel fins enhancing the heat exchange REFRIGERANT CONDENSATION to make the A/C sytem potential "AS COLD AS POSSIBLE NEAREST & ALMOST TO EVAP ICING WITHOUT ICING" !!!

Justin @ Stokes Automotive, and I as a marine engineer; have a different viewpoint at least at this juncture related to what is fine "FOR VERY COLD temps" <Until Justin changes his mind GRIN> he is happy with air vent temps @ 41F or so degrees, for me its 31-33F AND NOT ICING!

JOE FOR you using R-12 and PFC's your going to need a good thermostat for highly controlled ICING on your windows <grin> but as a pilot you know how to control icing (smile)


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1331945889.jpg

Please PM me when the product is in production and available. I have an '89 911.

Thanks

Thank You Alfonso I will PM you soon. HOWEVER I CAN'T PM YOU because you only public acess and have not registered here for a PM account.

FYI I have been able to deliver PFC's for several months now in a couple of different PFC versions, with more to follow;

Please understand that each PFC is currently individually custom handmade and designed and prepared for each particular 911 owner due to several variables of hose connection issues.

But have intentionally put several people on hold that wanted delivery, because I wanted first to publish a couple of complete test installs with pictures, and the proposed testing 911 owners have had scheduling issues that delayed them bringing their cars into the Justin’s shop for months to have thelr installs done.

By the way, I have another install test right behind this RSA, I think you will be interested in; that I am going to start posting pictures for a black 89 911 Carrera Cabriolet as soon as Stokes Automotive finishes this RSA install and test, and the owner brings the Cabriolet into the shop after the RSA is finished,

Stay Tuned <smile> :D

Reid

Justin Stokes Porsche Maestro fitting hose ends
 

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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1332337844.jpg

This looks awesome to me!

Justin Stokes Porsche Maestro fitting hose ends
 

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Justin Stokes Porsche Maestro fitting new barrier hose & fittings ends
STOKES AUTOMOTIVE OWNER

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1332342971.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1332343311.jpg

This picture above you will see on the upper left side; “ONE” of my "NEW Custom Made A/C INLINE MICRO CYLINDER FILTER's";

This “ONE” shown is installed for filtering the refrigerant flow coming out of the Front PFC OUTLET hose Line fitting then going into JUST BEFORE the A/C System line Dyer in the wheel well & also before going into the Evaporator; PROTECTING THE DRYER, EVAPORATOR & THE COMPRESSOR from damage that is bound to happen in time!

Note: I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN PREVENTITIVE MAINTENANCE,
Having a couple of These little puppy's installed in your a/c system can sure save the A/C system owner a BIG heart ache and a ton of money in the future to say the least!!!

This particular filter SHOWN protects both the inlet to the dryer and also even more importantly the next inlet to the compressor from any debris in the a/c lines.

There will be another one (not installed yet on this car yet) that protects from any debris THAT Will Come From The Compressor THAT IS BOUND TO HAPPEN IN TIME, from entering the PFC's and blocking the condenser Micro Channel Miniature Tube Holes CAUSINGLOS OF EFFICENCY:






http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1332347278.jpg

Front custom designed for fiber RS-retro body kit PFC HOSE LINES INSTALLED

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Nice looking work. Wish I had room to do that but do not, my oil cooler is in that spot.

ahh ohh

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This picture was taken inside the left (drivers side) Wheel Well; The Picture on the Left side of picture shows better my new inline cylinder pre-dryer filter; and on right side of picture shows the oil cooler and its mounting etc

Joe can you move your oil cooler back about 7/8s inch from the rectanglar front screen opening to have both fit butt together and share the inlet air this way? ? ? :eek:

Note: I have not personally examined the dimenstional variables of the depth behind the RS's body kit screen and the front sheet metal very good yet

If you notice from my pictures I or should I say Justin dont have fans attached yet on the front condenser

Justin sucked down the RSA and charged the A/C System WITH R134A
 

I am not going to post much on pressures & temps yet (LoL) but I will say a couple of things

I will let Justin Stokes of Stokes Automotive do this here under his own login, in a his own full report when he is ready too very soon, and you can believe it or don’t, from a 25 year respected Porsche Expert because this is his totally independent of me install not mine.

Anyway it was my observation of Justin’s Statements to me during this only preliminary test even without the “rear PFC not being fully sealed yet on this RSA” and “no fans mounted on the front PFC and the full front retrofit cowl completely removed” and the car on the lift near ground level @ 81.8 degrees F ambient inside the shop, “With only 1.5 lbs R134A”; <normal I think it’s is about 1.89lbs?>.

Justin said from his long time experience to me; initial pressures were “within his concept of "perfect range for very cold 911"

With an outside the car shop fan several inches from the front condenser and not sealed; and the rear contour PFC ONLY partially sealed to the deck lid

Low side pressure was 9 lbs; High side pressure was 220 lbs @ about 2000-2200 rpm; Lowest air vent temps were 42.8 F with a 12 second run time on the compressor at which time the computer controlled thermostat shuts off the compressor; which I think are rather short compressor on time @81.8 ambiant; With only an outside the car shop fan several inches from the front condenser generally aimed at @ the car front PFC and not sealed to the fan at all;

Note: At extended idle times of several minutes inside the shop air vent temps was 43.3 F with the shop fan blowing toward the front condenser several inches away and not sealed

But FYI Justin Stokes after being such skeptic of what I have been DOING IN HIS SHOP and also telling him and showing him my prototype work this last year and even before;

"That until he personally installs my PFC's HIMSELF on a 911 he don’t believe anything I say about A/C on Porsches". (This is important TO ME because I have tried to argue with him about what I am doing to no avail for a very long time and its been useless to argue with him to the point where he almost perminentlyh threw me out of the shop about this several times).

However Justin "FINALY CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT MY PFC's" he told me YESTERDAY <ROFL> :D
He told me yesterday for the VERY first time, HE IS “FINALLY A BELIEVER of my PFC's and what I am doing”; he also offered to buy me a special welder to help me do more condensers ROFL

(NOTE: The factory 1994 RSA A/C thermostat will only allow the air vent temps go down to ONLY about 43 F on this car DUH;;;; and a way will have to be found that should be easy to either alter this A/C's lowest thermostat computer setting or to bypass it with a different type digital or analog thermostat) I know From my own personal testing last summer on my old 911, I know exceeding lower air vent temps with my PFC's with R134A 911 well below 31 F is more then do-able with a bit of tweaking; believe it or dont!

911 Rear Countour PFC & Decklid Totally SEALED TOGETHER
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1332850172.jpg


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Let me give it a check and get back to you... its tight there. I have the RS front bumper/cooler ducting right in the middle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1332862299.jpg

36 F Preliminary Test result GETTING COLDER Wed 3-28-12
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1333020027.jpg


Wed 3-28-12

Justin removed one of the computer controlled thermostat system probes that goes into the evaporator and the RSA air A/C vent temps dropped "Down to A SOLID EXACT & Continuous 36.0 F" when he drove the car for the first time & still with the front after market body kit removed as you see it here.

Although Justin took many pictures today when he took the first preliminary test drive of the car with the front body parts still removed, unfortunately this was the only picture that is readable and shows air vent temps @ 36.3 F.


Note: Although one of the computer controlled A/C thermostats that goes into the evaporator was pulled out and air vent temps "Went Down to 36.0 F" in a test drive with ambient temp of 81 F, Justin told me that the compressor clutch was still cycling off and on @ 36.0; he believes another computer controlled thermostat probe someplace else besides the one going into the evaporator he removed was still causing the compressor to cycle on and off preventing it so it can make colder.

Stay Tuned

Joe Thank You for showing me the picture of your RS it looks GREAT, the body kit looks very similar to this one.

FYI I am going to have to somehow find small water resistant special fans for this 2004 RSA that will be needed when the car is in stop and go traffic, that will fit between the front PFC and the front OEM sheetmetal small space and they will be difficult but not impossible to find. LoL

The owner of the RSA would like it back asap but he is also reasonable, so I think I will let Justin finish and wrap up what he is doing very soon and let him take it home and bring it back, while I find and engineer him some small front fans and also clutch thermostat and better/different thermol expansion valve etc to make this car even colder lets say 31F or colder. He can't complain about a/c cold anymore its now getting down to 36 with the front body kit off and no front fans.

FYI I have an 89 911 Cab up next waiting in the wings to bring it in to Justins shop that wants cold A/C and I think you will be also interested in the project.

RSA GETTING 36.0 F. VENT-TEMPS PRE TESTING & PRESSURES using 1.5 LBS R134A
 

36.0 DEGREES F. ACHIEVED WITHOUT ANY FRONT PFC FANS; ONLY DRIVEN ONCE FOR 2 MILES ON VERY SHORT SIDE STREETS IN STOP & GO INCLUDING TRAFFIC THEN BACK TO THE SHOP

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JUSTIN re-installing final body parts

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RSA READY for the Owner pickup

NOTES: The RSA A/C system at this point has not been tested on the highway at normal driving speeds by Justin, only on short side streets for quick tests only 2 times, but so far has achieved vent temps down to 36.0 degrees F without any front PFC fans.

The car has been at the shop now for several weeks and should have been completed about two weeks ago, but due to Justins busy high work load for his other Porsche customers his testing time was very limited and ran out of time & the owner needs his car back for now.

So I will call this "RSA A/C Phase 0ne 36.0 degrees F"

In a three way conversation today between Justin, the Owner, and myself: the owner has been fully informed that the car A/C modification & testing has gone very well so far and is not yet fully completed yet, but we both want him to go drive it and enjoy his now cold A/C and report back to US his temps in varying driving conditions; and he agreed to return after I engineer special front PFC fans for him

We know from Justins short tests so far the car is getting pretty cold when driven a short distance without front fans it will for sure need for stop and go traffic, when it is brought back to install the new fans we will also do a little custom tweaking & a few tricks we know to make it even colder we have not had the time to do yet.

FYI: BASICALLY THE ONLY PARTS MODIFICATIONS TO THE RSA A/C System that were performed BY JUSTIN THAT WERE NEEDED from stock where replacement of the original Factory OEM Behr evaporator that was damaged & had internal leaking with another new stock Behr OEM replacement; the original Porsche stock factory compressor was used but had a slight modification adding Schroeder service valves, it did not have for servicing the refrigerant gases; removal of the cars condenser (Addition of MY custom made PFCs for this car) one front PFC and one rear Contour PFC; the old a/c hoses were also retained but were modified on the ends adding new hose extensions and new O-Ring fittings in a couple of places as needed.