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http://www.nostalgicairparts.com/air-conditioning/binary-high-low-safety-switch-male-threads-252.php The more complete kit. http://www.nostalgicairparts.com/air-conditioning/binary-switch-w-r-134a-discharge-port-3-16-port-401.php Br careful as this filter/dryer comes pressurized to prevent intransit contamination. |
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No good reason, solid or otherwise, foundation for the above suggestion except I have long suspected that a pressure rise, EXTREME rise, in the rear deck lid condensor temperature caused by rising engine heat and HIGH OAT is resulting in enough pressure to temporarily overcome the hose o-ring seals. That would explain the need to recharge the refrigernat every 2 years or so. It has never made good sense to me that Porsche would have continued the use of improper "non-barrier" hoses for so many years if that was what the problem was/is. Obviously replacing the "non-barrier" hoses would also require the use of new o-rings.... |
Never heard of AC filters. No aftermarket co dealing with 911 (Griffiths, rennaire, retroaire) says you need this. unless you mean the drier.
I got my Hi-Lo from Griffiths. Very nice piece. Includes the hose so its all one assembly. $160.00 Compressor to Condenser - Stock, Switch Stock configuration hose. Compressor to Engine Deck Lid Condenser with high/low pressure switch. Fits 1970-1983 cars with OEM "stock" type... 91157315002S Porsche, 911, 1970-1983, barirer hoses, 91157315002 Quote:
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Caution, HEADS UP...!!
"Some people can read the contents on a chewing gum wrapper and discover the secrets of the universe...others...." Anyone still putting any faith in this Reid guy needs to read the material he has referred us to. What is Black Death? A/C BLACK DEATH refers to a common failure mode of a specific model/type of A/C compressor, FX15 specifically. Apparently the teflon within the compressor wears off as a fine dust, maybe even at the molecular level, mixes with the HOT compressor oil and refrigernat and forms a black gue that blocks, ENTIRELY blocks refrigerant flow. Adding filters to these systems was unsuccessfull as the black "gue" simply blocked the filters. Tha final solution was to replace ALL system components with the exception of the evaporator itself. |
Sorry Reid. I am going to respectfully disagree... I called my Honda dealer for my 2012 Accord, and my VW dealer for my 2010 Passat and asked them if the AC filter/drier is on the recommended maintenance list for ANY car they service at ANY mileage and they said NO. Unless they open the system, or there are AC issues that they are servicing, its never changed, cleaned or serviced. The only filter they manufacturer is also known as the drier. They claimed to not make any other filter. Does this replace the drier and if Honda and VW would never change this even on new cars, why would we need to? Please clarify your position.
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I agree with wwest. Im calling BS on this one.
Stick to developing more efficient condensers and a better mousetrap. If Griffith and Rennaire dont sell a filter.. after all their sucess and years in the business... then its not needed... period. if this is just another drier with a built in filtration system, then say so. dont give us smoke and mirrors. it will ruin all your credibility. Quote:
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My 21-year-old Audi has no filter. It still cranks the 35-degree air on a hot day. As far as I know, the system has never been open - I have all the records from new, including the window sticker. Unless some AC service was omitted from the records, the car still has its original R12 charge. While I find this to be surprising, I do not think it's impossible. My S6 has its original R134a charge. Now, Audi in not well-known for generating stunning low temps in the cabin with its AC, but vent temps below 40 degrees with the highest fan speed in 100+ degree OAT is "good enough". How is it possible that these compressors are still running, if they needed their oil changed and/or filtered? I remain unconvinced that Reid has built the better mousetrap here. Creating buzz for a super-awesome product while throwing in some useful info every now and again is a marketing strategy that has been successful for many folks. I think the better plan for decent AC in a car never really designed for good AC is to call up Griffiths and talk to Charley. Vaporware and talking a good game is all part of the internet experience, but I prefer reality. :) |
I bought most of my system from Griff. Great stuff.
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I think his filter idea is a complete dud, and I'm not certain that the parallel-flow condenser is going to be such an improvement from the serpentine stuff available as to justify the money spent. Without independent testing data comparing the two, touting PFC as "better" is just a matter of opinion. And even if it is "better" as confirmed by independent testing, what is the longevity of the parts? And if they fail three years down the line, what will the response be? One of the great things about Porsche is the fact that the cars are damn reliable if you treat them to regular maintenance. AC is a mature technology, and has become ubiquitous due to how reliable it is. Adding question marks in search of one degree improvement in vent temp seems counterintuitive. |
I agree... for me, its not about vent temps. As i said in one of my first posts in this thread.. any monkey can get 35-37 degree vent temps at 82 degree ambient temps. Can you do that at 95 degrees is another matter. I havent seen it yet in his test data. I am willing to cut him some slack on this point because it is just now hitting 90 in south florida. testing in mid june will tell the story.
Also i think that for me, spending thousands, when i already spent thousands on Griff and ZIMS, and have 37 degree temps, is not in the cards, unless it lowered my engine temps by 20-30 degrees at 92 degree ambients. I think the better mousetrap would be a system that could obtain the same vent temps, while lowering engine temps to 8 o'clock from above 9 o'clock on a 95 degree day. that is the one weakness remaining on these systems regardless of which one you choose. That is why i keep suggesting that he focus on a new front fender condenser that along with a ZIMS or Griffs style rear condenser could complete delete the deck lid unit. A well designed kit with hoses, fittings and fans would have a market in the deep south. I run all day long at 8 o'clock at 92 degree ambients. until I turn on my AC and it raises to just over 9 o'clock. that is a real downer after spending all this money on cold AC. if you arent going to lower engine temps, then there really is no point since Griff and Rennaire have been there, done that with vent temps and their systems are high quality, service is excellent and for anyone who has it, there is just no point in changing. Quote:
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And those lower engine temps have to be with a bolt-on, reliable system. If you have to fab or cut or otherwise modify your car to make the stuff fit, it's going to be less attractive. Oh, yeah - it's also going to have to be price-competetive. I might spend some money for lower under-deck temps, but I'm not going to drop stacks of benjamins for 20 degrees of oil temp reduction three days a year. |
Yes. in houston we are at 92 from Mid May through Late September. So Id get more 3 days a year. :) But your points are really the bottom line on sales vs no sales... AC is not a critical component (like horsepower) where you will spend thousands for little to no gain just because it looks awesome...
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Reid, quite possibly or inadvertently, has done me, us(?) a favor.
I googled A/C black death as he requested. The issue of thermostatic fan clutches and/or electric radiator cooling fans kept coming up. So with a little more Googling I discovered a few instances wherein the failure of fan clutches or electric cooling fans resulted in refrigerant loss due to over-pressure, apparently well beyond 300PSI, within the condensor. So my theory of refrigerant loss due to condensor heating, pressure RISE, from engine heat may well be valid. So rather than replace those non-barrier hoses a better plan might be to have those 2 CHEAP China made fans run automatically, continue running, if/when the hi/lo switch indicates a HIGH condition, even with the ignition off. |
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I live in the San Fernando Valley where dry heat reaches 105-110 during the hottest Summer days. |
If you are running a high low switch wouldn't your pressure start to decrease almost immediately if it was tripped? and wouldn't the switch shut you down long before you reach that point? on the griff hi-low its right on the compressor. It would get tripped before the pressure would hit the deck condenser. Aren't most made that way?
I have a ZIMS fender condenser.. I do like the idea of that one continuing the run if the switch was tripped. Quote:
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No engine fan to move the engine heat downward rather than upward.... If it so happens that the evaporator vane temperatures already have been reduced to ~32F there will be almost no flow through the expansion valve to help alleviate the rising system pressure. |
Excuse me but You guys really crack me up sometimes and put me in an amusing mood so take no offense, my thinking is on another plain/planet then yours, I am not really interested in selling A/C accessories, at least not at any time soon!!!
The custom A/C filters I designed and make are primarily for MY PFC customers only and are primarily for the purpose of PFC warranty issues I have no intension of selling them separately at least not anytime soon! Some of the posts I read here are amusing to me sometimes in that most of you guys have no idea of what my background is and what I really normally do for a earn a living; Its sure normally not anything to do with A/C parts for old 911s. (smile) Because you dont really know me You might want to think about this when I say something here & that I occasionally might kind of know what I am talking about (smile) but I would also be the first to say I for sure don’t know everything and am consistently learning! FYI; When I was very young I was a full service journeyman level auto mechanic that in addition included their a/c systems, probably before most of you were born, when I worked for my father for many years and in school, then I became a professional marine mechanical engineer and for the last 30 years have worked on some of the finest and largest and most expensive motor yachts in the world, that are owned by billionaires where cost is no object. Besides the hundreds of types of mechanical, electrical etc etc etc Motor Yacht Systems I work on, I also work sometimes on their $250K-$350K computer controlled multistacked A/C Systems, so I think I KNOW HOW TO MAKE COLD A/C AIR <grin> oh btw I have worked on and done most of the work my 75 911 for over 20 years and fortunate and very lucky to have long time friends who happen to own one of the best and most respected Porsche full service repair shops in south Florida; who arekind enough to allow me into their shop to use anything in their shop for anything I need or want to do. Regardless you might say I know a thing or 2 about 911 Porsche A/C systems (smile) they are actually rather simple for anyone with a/c knowledge and experience. My current interest has expanded to an ARRAY of State of the Art Technology PFC’s but have not released any info about this yet BTW; I answered a technical question someone asked me and expanded on it because the person seemed to have limited A/C system knowledge to help them or anyone else reading learn something, what I said went right over some of your heads! You can disagree all you want and apparently you also totally miss the point I was making, after reading your conversations makes me smile Regarding a/c separate system filters I guess some of you know better than i.e. GM, Ford etc etc, and all the major A/C component manufacturing companies that include compressors, condensers & evaporators, AND A/C “SYSTEM FILTERS”, and THEIR STRONG RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ADDITION OFTHESE KINDS OF “SPECIAL SEPARATE SYSTEM FILTERS” (smile) I think you need to do a bit of reading/learning; your local car repair or parts shop is not a Manufacturing Engineering company & does not manufacture and warrant anything themselves because they do not make or manufacture anything; but you consider them as your ultimate source to know everything <grin> NOTE: the a/c “filter dryer” being talked about here by others as opposed to what I was talking about AN> “a/c system filter”! IT’s something completely different! BTW Have you ever cut in half a filter dryer METAL canister and looked and seen this limited low quality filter inside??? I HAVE, MANY! A filter dryer canister is not a low side and high side system filter, it’s a “DRYER with partial filtering in it” furthermore it is normally connected just before the evaporator and a filter dryer only has limited filter effects Try thinking of this; any debris that comes out of the compressor on the high pressure side next goes directly INTO the condenser “WITHOUT ANY PARTICLE FILTERING WHATSOEVER” and furthermore my PFC's have "very small micro-channel passageways" and not the far larger diameter OEM plate & fin tubes OR serpentine tubes that are fed directly first from the high side of the compressor, think about this! Gee what happens when the compressor throws out metal, or implodes spewing out phosgene and other very extremely nasty black death compounds and particles entering the condenser first? GEE you just damaged your condensers first because there was no filter from the high side of the compressor, its OK they are cheap just get new ones next downstream comes the dryer that people like to call a filter dryer that has limited filtering capabilty <smile> its now trash get a new one and dont forget to also get new hi and low side pressure sensers their toast now too next downstream comes the evap and thermal expansion valve gee nasty stuff just entered the evap and came out the other side ahhh ohh get a new evap and thermal expansion valve next down stream comes the compressor lowside inlet filter/dryer was not so good gee compressor damaged beyond repair gee geet a new one and as 'THE BLACK DEATH" ALSO Went through all the hoses be smart and not use them because if you do the will contaminate all the new parts you just replace and you will have just wasted your money having to do the job again Anyway I will let you guys have fun talking between yourselves about filter dryers, system filters and hi/low pressure switches, I have said enough and have other things to do |
Almost ready for pelican business
Although I have not as yet listed my PFC’s at Pelican yet, I plan to contact them regarding them listing them for sale here because I am about to expand production and its time I open the dialog with Pelican regarding this as I have decided they would make a good distribution point for one of my distributors.
I actually finally have my PFC’s to the state where they are now easy for me to make available to the public in very limited quantities of only a few at a time; and I will be contacting Pelican shortly to see how we can work this out for limited distribution. I am not in a hurry about this because I have several interested 911 owners near me that want them, (read below). MY Research, Development & Testing for my front, and the rear contour PFC’s was finished early last year. MY Intentional holdup for making my PFC’s more available and me putting many interested people on hold, had to do only with working out some special aluminum welding issues that I now have finally completely resolved ! Last year I read several posts in this thread from people wanting to see more independent install tests besides my own and I decided this was a good idea; so I had several 911 owners local to me that were interested in installing my PFC's contact Stokes Automotive a well known and respected Porsche repair shop here in Ft. Laud do their installations. So far now there have been 2 installs completely independent of me done by Jason the owner of Stokes Automotive & I have posted the results here; These addition 911 owners I have are in line to bring their 911’s into Stokes Automotive and the installations and related work and the report with pictures will be posted here when the owners and Stokes Automotive work out their scheduling issues, which unfortunately seems to keep changing, so I do not know yet when they are bringing in the cars; but it’s getting hotter here in south Florida so I only know it should be very soon (smile) On another note; Jason the owner of Stokes Automotive told me he was very impressed with the 2 different installations he did with my PFC’s and he has told me he has NOW become a believer in my PFC’s and will also recommend them to his many long time customers, so apparently from what he told me there is going to be additional 911 PFC installations also that I will post here related to his customers that are not mine. NOTES: I do not work for Stokes Automotive!!! I am completely independent from them! On another note last year I had SEVERAL people contact me here regarding PFC prices and that were privately given a special price; ONLY for those that had inquired before a certain date and I remember who they are, this time window has now been long gone but I may still try to give these people the same price I told them and include shipping in the price. I will have to discuss this with Pelican when I talk to them shortly about listing my products for sale here as I have no intension of cheating them and I have made no sales that originated from here yet. Btw I have ONE SPECIAL GUY, who is a 911 owner that reads this thread from Iraq & I want to do something special to make his 911 cold lf he contacts me again. |
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It begins to look to me as if this issue of a separate A/C filter might be an attempt to solve a problem of YOUR OWN MAKING. A problem that doesn't exist unless you need to flow refrigerant through the TINY passages in your new condensors.
Okay, I'll be 72 in July, my first air conditioned car was a 1968 Ford station wagon. I tend to drive my cars/trucks into infinity so I don't have a lot of personal experience with A/C. But the experience I do have would indicate that your A/C filter is a solution in need of a problem. I have had, owned, a few air-cooled 911's still have a '78 and an '88, and the only A/C "problem" I have had with any of them, other than cooling capacity, is the known issue of disappearing refrigerant. Unless you count conversion to R134a. |
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I plainly stated I am not interested in accessories cant you read? do some of you guys really have this much of a mental lapse or is it substance abuse? I am getting pretty tired of all these BS off topic posts here including yours, I guess its time to bring in the moderators |
You know, I'll be the first to admit electrical and then A/C are my weak points in what I've worked with on my own and family autos. However, even the stuff I'm really good at I won't get so cocky as to start cuttin' down everyone who proposes some newer ideas or solutions even if they've been tried before.
There's few vendors out there who take the time to try and develop products or reproduce products that will suit us Porsche guys- and IMHO room for plenty more! Perhaps Capt. Reid has come across like a salesman when he really is trying to take us along on the adventure, here. He is a capt. After all. I, like a couple of folks posting here, have an early car with carbs, that had factory AC and am debating replacing it, when I get the restoration moving, so I'll second interest in the fender condensor(s) only type system-deck condensors wont help the carbs disadvantages in these respects any. For those of you who don't live in the deep south or like (humid is the key word, here) climates, you don't know miserable hot. Yes you know desert western style heat where a cowboy can find relief in the shade( I loved this when I visited Texas a while back). But try that in the 'Carolinas' or Florida mid summer! Instead of cooling off in your garage, you still stew in the stagnant sauna that is any dark place you find- the sweat doesn't evaporate from your skin, it just drips and pours off you while the Mosquitos pick ravonously at your flesh-IT'S GREAT!!! So unless Reid's holding your deposit and not delivering on the goods, cool it a little;-p give him a chance to present his ideas- it is at least his thread, damn... |
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I absolutely think that you should spend your money how you see fit - it's your money, and you can spend it any way you please. If you think this approach will work, then you should take this opportunity, well take the opportunity whenever it actually arises. Reid's been "not selling" this stuff for quite some time now. I actually had considered his products before I started gathering parts for my AC upgrade. But his approach to the whole business was strange, to say the least. I decided, in the end, to go with a long-time Pelican supporter, and a guy who is universally hailed as a producer of top-notch gear with excellent customer service, instead of waiting for some untested and unknown-quality parts to materialize at some (unknown) future date. Reid may have something, but his vague claims and lack of any real data make the decision to go with a tried-and-true vendor a no-brainer for me. But hey - it's *your* money - you earned it, so you spend it as you see fit! |
enjoy yourselves in the summer SmileWavy
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I am with you. I think everyone should have a shot at seeing what they can do. There are many needs that are met this way. We all have dozens of examples of advances in technology. otherwise we would still be using Tube TV's, transitor radios, and driving in cars that felt unsafe at speeds over 60.
But when the experts who have dedicated their entire careers to AC and specifically Porsche AC state there is no need for a separate filter, and no auto manufactures add a filter or service a filter on their new cars and when Black Death is mentioned when in fact filters don't even prevent that, then its time to cut to the chase. Do you have proof that the filters do something? or are you just testing an idea on a crowd that has tried many different things? if its the later, that is ok. just say so. In this case, i think there could be a good product under the surface. however, the need for a filter may be why others don't use this technology for this purpose. i wouldnt know. so test 10 units with and without a filter. right? i think its good to try new ideas on all of us. but if you are wrong, its ok to say... "it was just a thought guys. you have a valid pint there..." or "i tried it and it didn't really work or wasn't really needed"... rather than fight your position to the death when in fact Google leads everyone down a different path and you have no real world proof, one way or the other. If your unit blows up without a filter, then perhaps you are back to the drawing board. that's ok to. My intent is not to slam Reid, but to get this back on track to the product that might be beneficial. I am not saying that improving a 30 year design is snake oil... but don't introduce controversy or you will get no where and you will lose the crowd. If you listen to the criticism and test your hypothesis rather than get dismissive and hostile, you wont get stuck with a garage full of AC filters. i was lost when he said that every AC manufacturer recommended them, when in fact ZERO auto manufacturers take that recommendation. How does that work? I am not relying on my local parts house or service shop. I assume that Honda has 1000's of engineers. Listen to the AC manufacturers.. and if it was recommended, they would have one on the shelf for sale for my car and the 20 million other cars they have built with AC. . in fact, they dont recommend them at all... so there is a disconnect between the facts, and what Reid is saying. So if he really wants to develop a better mousetrap, then lose all this noise and test a real world product in dozens of environments and see how they hold up. right? Quote:
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brads911sc
I sent you PM |
Since Reid has taken the position that my fan idea would/could/might add too much heat load to the engine a good suggestion for him might be that he drop any efforts to improve the efficiency of the rear deck lid condensor as that would/could/might have the same detrimental result.
I don't think anyone would disagree that the MAJOR short-coming of these early A/C systems is the lack of pressurized refrigerant cooling/condensation capability. Obviously that's the path, system improvemnt method, the factory went initially, as did/have most of the aftermarket suppliers. One of the used Targas, 79, (NYSSA) I purchased even had a large "belly" condensor. Second one, flaw, would be the loss of refrigerant over time. So, to me, the idea of an additional condensor with sufficient FORCED airflow would be the best overall solution. As I have said already, it is also my belief that the loss of refrigerant might be the result of the rise in condensor pressure, temporarily overcoming the o-ring seals, due to rising and radiant engine heat once the engine is switched off. With a FORCED airflow method the airflow method could be left enabled with the ignition switched off as long as the hi/lo pressure switch remained open. |
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Reid, the reference to "google" A/C BLACK DEATH by you was/is just plan WEIRD.
First, it seemed to only pertain to Ford automotive, and specific compressor models even at that. How could you have possibly read those articles, given your stated history/background, and related those failures to the smell we sometimes encounter in commercial retail sales environments? You must know that those are primarily ammonia use environments, resulting in a totally different odor. Care to explain..? |
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The existing front blower might even be used in this manner. |
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For any consumer, it's not the last two degrees of cooling that are important, but whether or not the last two degrees offer a good price/performance ratio. If the system you are selling offers totally awesome performance in all conditions with minimal adjustments, then it already has a leg up on systems that have to be individually optimized under the careful per-hour watch of an AC tech. If the system requires adjustments but is offered significantly cheaper than the competing product? Leg up. Are the installation instuctions clear and well-illustrated so that the system can be DIY installed easily? Is help a phone call away? Are the products bolt-on - ready to install without modifications to the car? And, after all of that, is the system I'm installing going to last longer than it took me to research and install it? Automotive AC systems are incredibly robust, and have to be because of the environment they're in. These are all questions that a well-informed consumer will be asking. Yes, some consumers will just haul out a checkbook and let a tech sweat the details. But I don't think the majority of Pelikaners are like that. Pushing the tech *is* important. Putting physics to work to get the most out of an already-marginal system is good thinking. But the thinking can't end there. It has to pass other non-technical tests in order to be successful. As a guy who bought just about every new gadget for my UrS6 that the small performance companies were putting out, I have some experience in the matter - and beta-testing new stuff can really suck. :) |
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maybe this might refresh your thinking regarding the experts? :cool:
http://www.acdelco.com/pdf/appcat_buyers/inline_filters_valves_tubes.pdf Quote:
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I wouldnt put my faith in anything GM or Ford did in the 80's and early 90's... Looks like they dont even fit anything after 1998. In fact out of all the ones listed, the first one 15-1491 is the ONLY one available at the large online sites I searched incl *********************** which is a big one... a few scattered where available at Autopartstomorrow.com or ebay... but most were out of stock. Must not be too popular or required.
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/part_numbers/83375-a-c-inline-filter http://www.***********************/search/?searchType=global&N=0&Ntt=15-1491&submit= here is what you get on ALL the other ones listed at ***********************. http://www.***********************/nomatch/?M=MTUtMTQ5MiBGaWx0ZXI=&R=c2VhcmNoQm94&_params=TnR 0PTE1LTE0OTIgRmlsdGVyJnNlYXJjaFR5cGU9Z2xvYmFs&ref= d3d3LmF1dG9wYXJ0c3dhcmVob3VzZS5jb20vc2VhcmNoLz9zZW FyY2hUeXBlPWdsb2JhbCZOPTAmTnR0PTE1LTE0OTIrRmlsdGVy JnN1Ym1pdD0= here is what i get on all but 3-4 on autopartstomorrow.com http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/queries?landed=true&number=15-10393&commit=Search+Now Please attach a file from 2005 or newer with filters for cars 2005 or newer. Anyone can google Reid. Focus on your primary product. This document just makes you look uninformed. Quote:
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Screen filters are not in the class of "fine" filter you seem to want to wish to require as a part of your condensor installation |
Here are ALL the ebay listings for any filter related to AC.
They are all driers just like the ones that come on our cars. With the exception of a handful of GM parts you referenced... Interestingly enough, I did find ONE GM inline filter that is newer than 2000. It fits only one system on only 2011 cars for the 3.9 and 4.6 liter engines in only the Buick and Cadillac models. I could find NO other AC systems of any make or model that does not use the standard filter/drier. It is NOT used in Chevrolet or GMC which I also found odd. It is Odd to me that this filter is only for 1 model year and such a limited scope if ALL AC manufacturers were recommending them in ALL their systems as you have stated as fact and common knowledge. Again, I would move beyond the filter idea and focus on development and real world testing of your primary product. |
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http://www.airsept.com/Articles/CompressorGuard/ACDelcoTechConnectJanFeb05.pdf |
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