I make Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers for 911's front and rear

[brads911sc]

Good artricle. Given this, I am surprised that more of these screen type filters do not exist for other automakers unless they are an afterthought and are just part of the compressor replacement process...

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by hcoles

I think this is a good thought, couldn't hurt to rig the fans to come on with high pressure with engine off. Someone might be able to set up a test and record if pressure rises after engine is turned off. Feel free to post a modified wiring diagram for the complete system so people can implement.

Howdy hcoles,

I see your in Calif, I am originally from Calif. Not sure of your summer temps in Saratoga are but I sure know how hot San Jose gets sometimes, near where you live along the coast is one of my favorate places in the world!

to put a fan on your rear condenser it only takes a few minutes to test this theory

If you think about it; dumping a ton of hot additional extra heat caused from installing extra blowers added to your rear decklid condenser into your engine compartment and at the same time greatly bypassing the effect of lowing oil temp affect by your front condenser, with an end result of a negligible air vent cooling benefit you might want to think again

You might want to also go look for the posts I did here last year on my 75 911 with high ambient temps in the mid 90s ambient and 99.9 % humidly that had info about no extra fans are needed on the rear deck lid condenser and that the engine fan is more than adequate if the rear deck lid condenser is completely sealed ,so that all incoming air into the engine compartment is all “first forced THROUGH THE REAR CONDENSER”; or any of the 3 DIFFERENT installs with pictures I posted here and notice they all have had my condenser fully sealed to the decklid with no additional fans. (been there/done that some time ago long before designing my PFC’s)

Personally from extensive testing on my 911 I have proven no additional fans are ever needed or that if they are added gives ONLY negligible effect (this also been proven by several other posters here at Pelican over time and considered to be common knowledge), so I view the subject as almost an old wives tale;

However if you want to talk about putting good high cfm fans on your front condensers this can offer real improvement, this is something that can prove to be highly beneficial, and even more so in stop and go driving and extended idling when talking on your cell phone parked

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by wwest

Reid, the reference to "google" A/C BLACK DEATH by you was/is just plan WEIRD.

First, it seemed to only pertain to Ford automotive, and specific compressor models even at that. How could you have possibly read those articles, given your stated history/background, and related those failures to the smell we sometimes encounter in commercial retail sales environments? You must know that those are primarily ammonia use environments, resulting in a totally different odor.

Care to explain..?

Sorry but I have seen the "black death" issue on Dodge and Chevy vehicles as well. Look on any major A/C parts sources and they will not honor any guarantee on A/C parts unless you change most all of the system out to get rid of the black death issue.

Joe A

[Joeaksa]

AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

Read the above... these guys do it for a living in Arizona... Ford, GM and Chrysler...

"What is "Black Death"?
"Black Death," as it is known by A/C system service professionals, results from a catastrophic breakdown of the refrigerant-lubricant which in turn causes excessive wear inside the compressor. In a typical case of "Black Death," metal particles are circulated throughout the system contaminating other components and necessitating either thorough flushing or complete replacement. The swash-plate compressors used by Ford are particularly susceptible to this problem. Similar damage can also occur inside the compressors used in some GM and Chrysler A/C systems. "

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Sorry but I have seen the "black death" issue on Dodge and Chevy vehicles as well. Look on any major A/C parts sources and they will not honor any guarantee on A/C parts unless you change most all of the system out to get rid of the black death issue.

Joe A

My statement only pertained to the google search Reid specifically recommended, my search did not find anything other than the Ford one. I'll try again to be certain.

And the issue of ammonia odor vs remains....

[brads911sc]

The issue for me isnt whether there is black death or not. the issue for me is that no one else is installing filters to solve this issue.

So what problem do the filters solve...????

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

Read the above... these guys do it for a living in Arizona... Ford, GM and Chrysler...

"What is "Black Death"?
"Black Death," as it is known by A/C system service professionals, results from a catastrophic breakdown of the refrigerant-lubricant which in turn causes excessive wear inside the compressor. In a typical case of "Black Death," metal particles are circulated throughout the system contaminating other components and necessitating either thorough flushing or complete replacement. The swash-plate compressors used by Ford are particularly susceptible to this problem. Similar damage can also occur inside the compressors used in some GM and Chrysler A/C systems. "

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest.

Which has absolutely no bearing on many of the questions at hand.

[brads911sc]

The vent temp issues does not need to be solved. Its already been solved by many. If you buy a complete kit from Griff you will get the higher air volume which is needed, the better evap, the better fan control, and even enhanced condenser system.

The issue is engine temps as it relates to AC.

if you spend your time creating enhanced deck lid condensers and it drives up engine temps, you will get very few sales.

if you spend your time addressing the lame fan on the front condenser and a creating replacement condenser for the rear deck I think youll have something. Even an enhanced front condenser is going to have marginal value becaue its really not the weak link if you have a Griff or Rennaire front condenser.

The thing I dont like about the ZIMS and Griff rear fender unit is that it sits right over the cat. so there is some loss of efficiency with that location. you put all that hot air in the engine bay, and then add your condenser 10 inches from the exhaust. Its just not optimal.

reinventing things that just make the weak areas weaker (rear deck) is really a solution in search of a problem. its not going to net you real world advantages.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Which has absolutely no bearing on many of the questions at hand.

I appreciate the "help" but I think my best response is to have my nephew fly up and drive the '88 back down to Olive Branch MS for a few years. By the end of summer we'll know if the cooling fan solution is really valid. On the other hand it will take at least 2 years, maybe more like 5, to know if the refrigerant leakage issue is resolved.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by wwest

My statement only pertained to the google search Reid specifically recommended, my search did not find anything other than the Ford one. I'll try again to be certain.

And the issue of ammonia odor vs remains....

You do not have to "try it again," just go to the link I provided. These guys do it for a living in Arizona. It was 108 here yesterday and its only May 20th.

If they see it in Ford, GM and Dodge products... it might be worth believing...

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

The issue is engine temps as it relates to AC.

if you spend your time creating enhanced deck lid condensers and it drives up engine temps, you will get very few sales.

The thing I dont like about the ZIMS and Griff rear fender unit is that it sits right over the cat. so there is some loss of efficiency with that location. you put all that hot air in the engine bay, and then add your condenser 10 inches from the exhaust. Its just not optimal.

reinventing things that just make the weak areas weaker (rear deck) is really a solution in search of a problem. its not going to net you real world advantages.

Totally agree and thats why I am leaning towards putting a condensor in the LH wheel-well over the decklid. Why heat up the air going into the engine?

Regarding the Cat, would rather put the condensor in the fender well than main air intake and many of us do not have a cat on our engine, so thats a moot point for us.

[KelogGes]

Hey Joe,,

They completly missed what I threw out to help them;

YOU DIDN'T Miss Nada I know your here to be serious

I have decided to stop spoon feading here and make them find and do just a little reading and "black death" went right over their head and lazyness remains clueless

Black Death knowlege is rather redundant as everyone who works on any kind of a/c or refridgeratioin system has known about it almost forever as common knowlege

Furthermore it seems people here want to argue about a/c line filters, and I sit here and shake my head smiling

for your ice cold baby I want you to have 2 one in one out, I have been thinking about a 3rd but have not decided ?

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

Read the above... these guys do it for a living in Arizona... Ford, GM and Chrysler...

"What is "Black Death"?
"Black Death," as it is known by A/C system service professionals, results from a catastrophic breakdown of the refrigerant-lubricant which in turn causes excessive wear inside the compressor. In a typical case of "Black Death," metal particles are circulated throughout the system contaminating other components and necessitating either thorough flushing or complete replacement. The swash-plate compressors used by Ford are particularly susceptible to this problem. Similar damage can also occur inside the compressors used in some GM and Chrysler A/C systems. "

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

You do not have to "try it again," just go to the link I provided. These guys do it for a living in Arizona. It was 108 here yesterday and its only May 20th.

If they see it in Ford, GM and Dodge products... it might be worth believing...

This all very confusing....perusing the internet it appears that the "black death" term originated with the Ford FX15 compressors series, the horrid odor of the black goo formed by the combination of teflon "fines", system lubricant, and refrigerant under HEAT.

But now the term seems to have evolved outside the A/C specialist community to mean compressor grenading for any reason whatever.

The actual difference in addressing the 2 separate problems is more definitive.

With the black goo issue the only really viable answer seems to be to replace all of the components. Whereas with "standard" compressor "grenading" flushing and insertion of the simple screen filter seems to be a satisfactory solution.

Teflon is not an easy thing to deal with "adhesion wise" so my guess would be that the FX15's teflon formulation did not adhere to the metal compressor components as well as was required.

[wwest]

Please note that the failure type/description here does not match the "original" failure description for "black death", the formation of black goo, highly odorous GOO.


AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by hcoles

I think this is a good thought, couldn't hurt to rig the fans to come on with high pressure with engine off. Someone might be able to set up a test and record if pressure rises after engine is turned off. Feel free to post a modified wiring diagram for the complete system so people can implement.

Howdy hcoles,

I have tried to keep discussion regarding adding fans in the deck lid out of here because I view them as point less, or should I say almost useless!

For those still interested in deck lid electric fan topics I think it should be taken some place else seperately @ Pelican and not dumped here in my thread where the topic is new technology hi tech condensers (PFC's)!

I see your in Calif, I am originally from Calif. Not sure of your summer temps in Saratoga are but I sure know how hot San Jose gets sometimes, near where you live along the coast is one of my favorate places in the world!

to put a fan on your rear condenser it only takes a few minutes to test this theory

If you think about it; dumping a ton of hot additional extra heat caused from installing extra blowers added to your rear decklid condenser into your engine compartment and at the same time greatly bypassing the effect of lowing oil temp affect by your front condenser, with an end result of a negligible air vent cooling benefit you might want to think again

You might want to also go look for the posts I did here last year on my 75 911 with high ambient temps in the mid 90s ambient and 99.9 % humidly that had info about no extra fans are needed on the rear deck lid condenser and that the engine fan is more than adequate if the rear deck lid condenser is completely sealed ,so that all incoming air into the engine compartment is all “first forced THROUGH THE REAR CONDENSER”; or any of the 3 DIFFERENT installs with pictures I posted here and notice they all have had my condenser fully sealed to the decklid with no additional fans. (been there/done that some time ago long before designing my PFC’s)

Personally from extensive testing on my 911 I have proven no additional fans are ever needed or that if they are added gives ONLY negligible effect (this also been proven by several other posters here at Pelican over time and considered to be common knowledge), so I view the subject as almost an old wives tale;

However if you want to talk about putting good high cfm fans on your front condensers this can offer real improvement, this is something that can prove to be highly beneficial, and even more so in stop and go driving and extended idling when talking on your cell phone parked

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest and it basically is not hot there and 911 A/C is not realy needed.

I am going to suggest you move this discussion elseware

[brads911sc]

ok. I am about done even looking at this tread.

we have gotten lost in the noise. here are my questions for Reid.

1. What is the filter solving? Proof that the problem it is solving exists? Proof that the filter solves it?
2. what is the status of the front condenser fan upgrade?
3. What are you leaning towards? A kit in the left front fender that replaces the deck? or an improved deck that will just add more heat to the engine bay? if the later, have you measured engine temps, 1. with ac with stock behr, ac with yours, without ac on?
4. Have you created 5-6 kits that you will test over a hot summer in a variety of cars in a variety of driving conditions?

Your answer to these questions will determine whether 95% of us say "thanks but no thanks", or keep following along. black death, whether GM used a filter in 1998. none of this matters really if you dont have a product that solves a problem.

Again, please remember that ANYONE in ANY Ambients that has purchased a Griffiths or Rennaire kit are seeing 37 degree vent temps at 92 degrees ambient. So your vent temps sale isnt going to get it done.. Need to have a different value to add to the buyers experience....

[KelogGes]

Brad read your private email here I sent you, and call me I want to talk to you voice about some things, and I want your imput on something to be discussed

You are absolutel right the noice has taken over,

1. Forget about the filter its not important to this tread
2. I have a new small underbody very high cfm small size fan I want to discuss for front condensers if you want but dont consider it all that important just wait, on another point this fan conversation by others going on in the tread is no more then a BS distraction to serious talking and that have nothing to do with anything related to me, except its a complete insane distraction that has got to go away
3 THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT >>> "FENDER CATS" will be discussed in a new thread we will make with everyone staying on topic! You had a good idea at the right time by the way do you know Joeaksa? I want you to get to know if you dont and I want both of you in a new thread for serious on topic discussions by adults with a common interest, although I dont know him I want to try to get Jim Sims to join us(smile); I am up to something that is not yet quite ready for prime time but need to move fast before it gets much hotter
4. No Kits Yet cant tell you when, KOOL CATS will be discussed in a different thread

Originally Posted by brads911sc

ok. I am about done even looking at this tread.

we have gotten lost in the noise. here are my questions for Reid.

1. What is the filter solving? Proof that the problem it is solving exists? Proof that the filter solves it?
2. what is the status of the front condenser fan upgrade?
3. What are you leaning towards? A kit in the left front fender that replaces the deck? or an improved deck that will just add more heat to the engine bay? if the later, have you measured engine temps, 1. with ac with stock behr, ac with yours, without ac on?
4. Have you created 5-6 kits that you will test over a hot summer in a variety of cars in a variety of driving conditions?

Your answer to these questions will determine whether 95% of us say "thanks but no thanks", or keep following along. black death, whetehr GM used a filter in 1998. none of this matters really if you dont have a product that solves a problem.

Again, please remember that ANYONE in ANY Ambients that has purchased a Griffiths or Rennaire kit are seeing 37 degree vent temps at 92 degrees ambient. So your vent temps sale isnt going to get it done.. Need to have a different value to add to the buyers experience....

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Howdy hcoles,

I have tried to keep discussion regarding adding fans in the deck lid out of here because I view them as point less, or should I say almost useless!

For those still interested in deck lid electric fan topics I think it should be taken some place else seperately @ Pelican and not dumped here in my thread where the topic is new technology hi tech condensers (PFC's)!

I see your in Calif, I am originally from Calif. Not sure of your summer temps in Saratoga are but I sure know how hot San Jose gets sometimes, near where you live along the coast is one of my favorate places in the world!

to put a fan on your rear condenser it only takes a few minutes to test this theory

If you think about it; dumping a ton of hot additional extra heat caused from installing extra blowers added to your rear decklid condenser into your engine compartment and at the same time greatly bypassing the effect of lowing oil temp affect by your front condenser, with an end result of a negligible air vent cooling benefit you might want to think again

Reid, just exactly what do you think already/currently happens to that "ton of hot additional extra heat" on a 100F day cruising along with a "decent" engine RPM..? What were those Germans thinking, really?

The issue of the deck lid fans providing "extra" heat only applies with the engine at idle or low RPM when the engine load, heat, is at a minimum anyway. Anyone with an open mind would see that the deck lid fans really only contribute with low engine loading.

My bet would be that if a way could be found to sense the air volume level resulting from the engine driven fan and adjust the lid fans' power downward accordingly no difference would be noted vs full power to the fans constantly.

Then there is also the question regarding the possibility that the fans just might be acting as generators at high engine RPMs.

You might want to also go look for the posts I did here last year on my 75 911 with high ambient temps in the mid 90s ambient and 99.9 % humidly that had info about no extra fans are needed on the rear deck lid condenser and that the engine fan is more than adequate if the rear deck lid condenser is completely sealed ,

Back to the chicken & egg argument...

"..no extra fans are needed..."

If that is a true statement then how can it be that the fans contribute "extra" heat vs simply sealing the deck lid condensor against airflow bypass...?

If both result in the same, adequate, level of A/C cooling capability, how could the heat load to the engine be different..??



so that all incoming air into the engine compartment is all “first forced THROUGH THE REAR CONDENSER”; or any of the 3 DIFFERENT installs with pictures I posted here and notice they all have had my condenser fully sealed to the decklid with no additional fans. (been there/done that some time ago long before designing my PFC’s)

Personally from extensive testing on my 911 I have proven no additional fans are ever needed or that if they are added gives ONLY negligible effect (this also been proven by several other posters here at Pelican over time and considered to be common knowledge), so I view the subject as almost an old wives tale;

However if you want to talk about putting good high cfm fans on your front condensers this can offer real improvement, this is something that can prove to be highly beneficial, and even more so in stop and go driving and extended idling when talking on your cell phone parked

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest and it basically is not hot there and 911 A/C is not realy needed.

I am not going to suggest you move this discussion elseware

....

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

ok. I am about done even looking at this tread.

we have gotten lost in the noise. here are my questions for Reid.

1. What is the filter solving? Proof that the problem it is solving exists? Proof that the filter solves it?
2. what is the status of the front condenser fan upgrade?
3. What are you leaning towards? A kit in the left front fender that replaces the deck? or an improved deck that will just add more heat to the engine bay? if the later, have you measured engine temps, 1. with ac with stock behr, ac with yours, without ac on?
4. Have you created 5-6 kits that you will test over a hot summer in a variety of cars in a variety of driving conditions?

Your answer to these questions will determine whether 95% of us say "thanks but no thanks", or keep following along. black death, whether GM used a filter in 1998. none of this matters really if you dont have a product that solves a problem.

Again, please remember that ANYONE in ANY Ambients that has purchased a Griffiths or Rennaire kit are seeing 37 degree vent temps at 92 degrees ambient. So your vent temps sale isnt going to get it done.. Need to have a different value to add to the buyers experience....

The battle Reid is "fighting" is basically the same as applies to Griffiths and/or Rennaire. The Value pricing of Reid's snake oil will decline quite precipitously if it proves out that the 2 deck lids fans, <$50, provide the same adequate A/C capability as Griffiths/Rennaire. Especially so if it turns out, as I suspect it might, the the fans can also be used to solve the refrigerant leakage problem.

Not saying by any means that Griffiths and Rennaire have been selling snake oil, just that's what their product, and Reid's will become.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Howdy hcoles,

I have tried to keep discussion regarding adding fans in the deck lid out of here because I view them as point less, or should I say almost useless!

For those still interested in deck lid electric fan topics I think it should be taken some place else seperately @ Pelican and not dumped here in my thread where the topic is new technology hi tech condensers (PFC's)!

I see your in Calif, I am originally from Calif. Not sure of your summer temps in Saratoga are but I sure know how hot San Jose gets sometimes, near where you live along the coast is one of my favorate places in the world!

to put a fan on your rear condenser it only takes a few minutes to test this theory

If you think about it; dumping a ton of hot additional extra heat caused from installing extra blowers added to your rear decklid condenser into your engine compartment and at the same time greatly bypassing the effect of lowing oil temp affect by your front condenser, with an end result of a negligible air vent cooling benefit you might want to think again

You might want to also go look for the posts I did here last year on my 75 911 with high ambient temps in the mid 90s ambient and 99.9 % humidly that had info about no extra fans are needed on the rear deck lid condenser and that the engine fan is more than adequate if the rear deck lid condenser is completely sealed ,so that all incoming air into the engine compartment is all “first forced THROUGH THE REAR CONDENSER”; or any of the 3 DIFFERENT installs with pictures I posted here and notice they all have had my condenser fully sealed to the decklid with no additional fans. (been there/done that some time ago long before designing my PFC’s)

Personally from extensive testing on my 911 I have proven no additional fans are ever needed or that if they are added gives ONLY negligible effect

Reid, no engineer worth his/her salt would testify to the above absent being able to back it up with instrumentation results. Might you at least tell us how the vehicle was instrumented for the measurements required for your testimony?

(this also been proven by several other posters here at Pelican over time and considered to be common knowledge)

Would you mind providing links to those, I've had no luck finding, search for, negative results, only positive, and not only "here".

, so I view the subject as almost an old wives tale;

However if you want to talk about putting good high cfm fans on your front condensers this can offer real improvement, this is something that can prove to be highly beneficial, and even more so in stop and go driving and extended idling when talking on your cell phone parked

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest and it basically is not hot there and 911 A/C is not realy needed.

I am not going to suggest you move this discussion elseware

....