I make Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers for 911's front and rear

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by silberurs6

lol, just lol.

dohhh pfc's were the only thing that will be listed for sale

I plainly stated I am not interested in accessories cant you read?

do some of you guys really have this much of a mental lapse or is it substance abuse?

I am getting pretty tired of all these BS off topic posts here including yours, I guess its time to bring in the moderators

[ratpiper71T]

You know, I'll be the first to admit electrical and then A/C are my weak points in what I've worked with on my own and family autos. However, even the stuff I'm really good at I won't get so cocky as to start cuttin' down everyone who proposes some newer ideas or solutions even if they've been tried before.
There's few vendors out there who take the time to try and develop products or reproduce products that will suit us Porsche guys- and IMHO room for plenty more!
Perhaps Capt. Reid has come across like a salesman when he really is trying to take us along on the adventure, here. He is a capt. After all.
I, like a couple of folks posting here, have an early car with carbs, that had factory AC and am debating replacing it, when I get the restoration moving, so I'll second interest in the fender condensor(s) only type system-deck condensors wont help the carbs disadvantages in these respects any.
For those of you who don't live in the deep south or like (humid is the key word, here) climates, you don't know miserable hot. Yes you know desert western style heat where a cowboy can find relief in the shade( I loved this when I visited Texas a while back). But try that in the 'Carolinas' or Florida mid summer! Instead of cooling off in your garage, you still stew in the stagnant sauna that is any dark place you find- the sweat doesn't evaporate from your skin, it just drips and pours off you while the Mosquitos pick ravonously at your flesh-IT'S GREAT!!!
So unless Reid's holding your deposit and not delivering on the goods, cool it a little;-p give him a chance to present his ideas- it is at least his thread, damn...

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

...do some of you guys really have this much of a mental lapse or is it substance abuse? [...] I am getting pretty tired of all these BS off topic posts here including yours, I guess its time to bring in the moderators

LMAO - that's some excellent material.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I am getting pretty tired of all these BS off topic posts here including yours, I guess its time to bring in the moderators

It actually amazes me that Wayne and the moderators have let this continue as long as it has....

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by ratpiper71T

You know, I'll be the first to admit electrical and then A/C are my weak points in what I've worked with on my own and family autos. However, even the stuff I'm really good at I won't get so cocky as to start cuttin' down everyone who proposes some newer ideas or solutions even if they've been tried before.

It has nothing to do with the ideas, but with the approach.

I absolutely think that you should spend your money how you see fit - it's your money, and you can spend it any way you please. If you think this approach will work, then you should take this opportunity, well take the opportunity whenever it actually arises. Reid's been "not selling" this stuff for quite some time now. I actually had considered his products before I started gathering parts for my AC upgrade. But his approach to the whole business was strange, to say the least. I decided, in the end, to go with a long-time Pelican supporter, and a guy who is universally hailed as a producer of top-notch gear with excellent customer service, instead of waiting for some untested and unknown-quality parts to materialize at some (unknown) future date.

Reid may have something, but his vague claims and lack of any real data make the decision to go with a tried-and-true vendor a no-brainer for me. But hey - it's *your* money - you earned it, so you spend it as you see fit!

[KelogGes]

enjoy yourselves in the summer

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

enjoy yourselves in the summer

With my Griffiths stuff in the car? I have no doubt my summer will be nice and Kuehl.

[brads911sc]

I am with you. I think everyone should have a shot at seeing what they can do. There are many needs that are met this way. We all have dozens of examples of advances in technology. otherwise we would still be using Tube TV's, transitor radios, and driving in cars that felt unsafe at speeds over 60.

But when the experts who have dedicated their entire careers to AC and specifically Porsche AC state there is no need for a separate filter, and no auto manufactures add a filter or service a filter on their new cars and when Black Death is mentioned when in fact filters don't even prevent that, then its time to cut to the chase. Do you have proof that the filters do something? or are you just testing an idea on a crowd that has tried many different things? if its the later, that is ok. just say so.

In this case, i think there could be a good product under the surface. however, the need for a filter may be why others don't use this technology for this purpose. i wouldnt know. so test 10 units with and without a filter. right? i think its good to try new ideas on all of us. but if you are wrong, its ok to say... "it was just a thought guys. you have a valid pint there..." or "i tried it and it didn't really work or wasn't really needed"... rather than fight your position to the death when in fact Google leads everyone down a different path and you have no real world proof, one way or the other. If your unit blows up without a filter, then perhaps you are back to the drawing board. that's ok to.

My intent is not to slam Reid, but to get this back on track to the product that might be beneficial. I am not saying that improving a 30 year design is snake oil... but don't introduce controversy or you will get no where and you will lose the crowd. If you listen to the criticism and test your hypothesis rather than get dismissive and hostile, you wont get stuck with a garage full of AC filters.

i was lost when he said that every AC manufacturer recommended them, when in fact ZERO auto manufacturers take that recommendation. How does that work? I am not relying on my local parts house or service shop. I assume that Honda has 1000's of engineers. Listen to the AC manufacturers.. and if it was recommended, they would have one on the shelf for sale for my car and the 20 million other cars they have built with AC. . in fact, they dont recommend them at all... so there is a disconnect between the facts, and what Reid is saying.

So if he really wants to develop a better mousetrap, then lose all this noise and test a real world product in dozens of environments and see how they hold up. right?

Originally Posted by ratpiper71T

You know, I'll be the first to admit electrical and then A/C are my weak points in what I've worked with on my own and family autos. However, even the stuff I'm really good at I won't get so cocky as to start cuttin' down everyone who proposes some newer ideas or solutions even if they've been tried before.
There's few vendors out there who take the time to try and develop products or reproduce products that will suit us Porsche guys- and IMHO room for plenty more!
Perhaps Capt. Reid has come across like a salesman when he really is trying to take us along on the adventure, here. He is a capt. After all.
I, like a couple of folks posting here, have an early car with carbs, that had factory AC and am debating replacing it, when I get the restoration moving, so I'll second interest in the fender condensor(s) only type system-deck condensors wont help the carbs disadvantages in these respects any.
For those of you who don't live in the deep south or like (humid is the key word, here) climates, you don't know miserable hot. Yes you know desert western style heat where a cowboy can find relief in the shade( I loved this when I visited Texas a while back). But try that in the 'Carolinas' or Florida mid summer! Instead of cooling off in your garage, you still stew in the stagnant sauna that is any dark place you find- the sweat doesn't evaporate from your skin, it just drips and pours off you while the Mosquitos pick ravonously at your flesh-IT'S GREAT!!!
So unless Reid's holding your deposit and not delivering on the goods, cool it a little;-p give him a chance to present his ideas- it is at least his thread, damn...

[KelogGes]

brads911sc
I sent you PM

[wwest]

Since Reid has taken the position that my fan idea would/could/might add too much heat load to the engine a good suggestion for him might be that he drop any efforts to improve the efficiency of the rear deck lid condensor as that would/could/might have the same detrimental result.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the MAJOR short-coming of these early A/C systems is the lack of pressurized refrigerant cooling/condensation capability. Obviously that's the path, system improvemnt method, the factory went initially, as did/have most of the aftermarket suppliers. One of the used Targas, 79, (NYSSA) I purchased even had a large "belly" condensor. Second one, flaw, would be the loss of refrigerant over time.

So, to me, the idea of an additional condensor with sufficient FORCED airflow would be the best overall solution.

As I have said already, it is also my belief that the loss of refrigerant might be the result of the rise in condensor pressure, temporarily overcoming the o-ring seals, due to rising and radiant engine heat once the engine is switched off.

With a FORCED airflow method the airflow method could be left enabled with the ignition switched off as long as the hi/lo pressure switch remained open.

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by wwest

Since Reid has taken the position that my fan idea would/could/might add too much heat load to the engine a good suggestion for him might be that he drop any efforts to improve the efficiency of the rear deck lid condensor as that would/could/might have the same detrimental result.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the MAJOR short-coming of these early A/C system is the lack of pressurized refrigerant cooling/condensation capability. One of the Targas I purchased used even had a large "belly" condensor. Second one would be the loss of refrigerant over time.

So, to me, the idea of an additional condensor with sufficient FORCED airflow would be the best overall solution.

As I have said already, it is also my belief that the loss of refrigerant might be the result of the rise in condensor pressure, temporarily overcoming the o-ring seals, due to rising and radiant engine heat once the engine is switched off.

With a FORCED airflow method the airflow method could be left enabled with the ignition switched off as long as the hi/lo pressure swithed remained open.

I think this is a good thought, couldn't hurt to rig the fans to come on with high pressure with engine off. Someone might be able to set up a test and record if pressure rises after engine is turned off. Feel free to post a modified wiring diagram for the complete system so people can implement.

[wwest]

Reid, the reference to "google" A/C BLACK DEATH by you was/is just plan WEIRD.

First, it seemed to only pertain to Ford automotive, and specific compressor models even at that. How could you have possibly read those articles, given your stated history/background, and related those failures to the smell we sometimes encounter in commercial retail sales environments? You must know that those are primarily ammonia use environments, resulting in a totally different odor.

Care to explain..?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by hcoles

I think this is a good thought, couldn't hurt to rig the fans to come on with high pressure with engine off. Someone might be able to set up a test and record if pressure rises after engine is turned off. Feel free to post a modified wiring diagram for the complete system so people can implement.

There you go, Reid, an opportunity to quickly bring a product to market. A 2 stage circuit design, a way to "remember" that the A/C compressor clutch was engaged during the last ignition cycle (overcome the "binary" aspects of the hi/lo pressure switch) and now, post ignition, the system pressure rises, or remains, above the high pressure limit.

The existing front blower might even be used in this manner.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

So if he really wants to develop a better mousetrap, then lose all this noise and test a real world product in dozens of environments and see how they hold up. right?

This would be the best approach. Side-by-side tests on the same car with stock, current-market upgrades and then the micro-channel stuff. If the microchannel stuff is better, then the test results will bear it out. Ahh, but the testing isn't done. Now, run the test system in a car as a daily driver to see how robust it is.

For any consumer, it's not the last two degrees of cooling that are important, but whether or not the last two degrees offer a good price/performance ratio.

If the system you are selling offers totally awesome performance in all conditions with minimal adjustments, then it already has a leg up on systems that have to be individually optimized under the careful per-hour watch of an AC tech. If the system requires adjustments but is offered significantly cheaper than the competing product? Leg up. Are the installation instuctions clear and well-illustrated so that the system can be DIY installed easily? Is help a phone call away? Are the products bolt-on - ready to install without modifications to the car? And, after all of that, is the system I'm installing going to last longer than it took me to research and install it? Automotive AC systems are incredibly robust, and have to be because of the environment they're in.

These are all questions that a well-informed consumer will be asking. Yes, some consumers will just haul out a checkbook and let a tech sweat the details. But I don't think the majority of Pelikaners are like that.

Pushing the tech *is* important. Putting physics to work to get the most out of an already-marginal system is good thinking. But the thinking can't end there. It has to pass other non-technical tests in order to be successful. As a guy who bought just about every new gadget for my UrS6 that the small performance companies were putting out, I have some experience in the matter - and beta-testing new stuff can really suck.

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

This would be the best approach. Side-by-side tests on the same car with stock, current-market upgrades and then the micro-channel stuff. If the microchannel stuff is better, then the test results will bear it out. Ahh, but the testing isn't done. Now, run the test system in a car as a daily driver to see how robust it is.

For any consumer, it's not the last two degrees of cooling that are important, but whether or not the last two degrees offer a good price/performance ratio.

If the system you are selling offers totally awesome performance in all conditions with minimal adjustments, then it already has a leg up on systems that have to be individually optimized under the careful per-hour watch of an AC tech. If the system requires adjustments but is offered significantly cheaper than the competing product? Leg up. Are the installation instuctions clear and well-illustrated so that the system can be DIY installed easily? Is help a phone call away? Are the products bolt-on - ready to install without modifications to the car? And, after all of that, is the system I'm installing going to last longer than it took me to research and install it? Automotive AC systems are incredibly robust, and have to be because of the environment they're in.

These are all questions that a well-informed consumer will be asking. Yes, some consumers will just haul out a checkbook and let a tech sweat the details. But I don't think the majority of Pelikaners are like that.

Pushing the tech *is* important. Putting physics to work to get the most out of an already-marginal system is good thinking. But the thinking can't end there. It has to pass other non-technical tests in order to be successful. As a guy who bought just about every new gadget for my UrS6 that the small performance companies were putting out, I have some experience in the matter - and beta-testing new stuff can really suck.

+1 - it might not be that much work to swap out the micro-channel parts with "stock" parts and take some spot measurements using the same car on the same road/etc. then much of the tension found on this thread might be eliminated. Could be people like the tension, I'm getting a bit tired of it. I keep reading because all sorts of informative posts re. Porsche AC continue to come in.

[KelogGes]

maybe this might refresh your thinking regarding the experts?
http://www.acdelco.com/pdf/appcat_buyers/inline_filters_valves_tubes.pdf

Originally Posted by brads911sc

But when the experts who have dedicated their entire careers to AC and specifically Porsche AC state there is no need for a separate filter, and no auto manufactures add a filter or service a filter on their new cars and when Black Death is mentioned when in fact filters don't even prevent that, then its time to cut to the chase. Do you have proof that the filters do something? or are you just testing an idea on a crowd that has tried many different things? if its the later, that is ok. just say so.

i was lost when he said that every AC manufacturer recommended them, when in fact ZERO auto manufacturers take that recommendation. How does that work? I am not relying on my local parts house or service shop. I assume that Honda has 1000's of engineers. Listen to the AC manufacturers.. and if it was recommended, they would have one on the shelf for sale for my car and the 20 million other cars they have built with AC. . in fact, they dont recommend them at all... so there is a disconnect between the facts, and what Reid is saying.

So if he really wants to develop a better mousetrap, then lose all this noise and test a real world product in dozens of environments and see how they hold up. right?

[brads911sc]

I wouldnt put my faith in anything GM or Ford did in the 80's and early 90's... Looks like they dont even fit anything after 1998. In fact out of all the ones listed, the first one 15-1491 is the ONLY one available at the large online sites I searched incl *********************** which is a big one... a few scattered where available at Autopartstomorrow.com or ebay... but most were out of stock. Must not be too popular or required.

http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/part_numbers/83375-a-c-inline-filter

http://www.***********************/search/?searchType=global&N=0&Ntt=15-1491&submit=

here is what you get on ALL the other ones listed at ***********************.

http://www.***********************/nomatch/?M=MTUtMTQ5MiBGaWx0ZXI=&R=c2VhcmNoQm94&_params=TnR0PTE1LTE0OTIgRmlsdGVyJnNlYXJjaFR5cGU9Z2 xvYmFs&ref=d3d3LmF1dG9wYXJ0c3dhcmVob3VzZS5jb20vc2VhcmNoLz 9zZWFyY2hUeXBlPWdsb2JhbCZOPTAmTnR0PTE1LTE0OTIrRmls dGVyJnN1Ym1pdD0=

here is what i get on all but 3-4 on autopartstomorrow.com

http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/queries?landed=true&number=15-10393&commit=Search+Now

Please attach a file from 2005 or newer with filters for cars 2005 or newer. Anyone can google Reid. Focus on your primary product. This document just makes you look uninformed.

Originally Posted by KelogGes

maybe this might refresh your thinking regarding the experts?
http://www.acdelco.com/pdf/appcat_buyers/inline_filters_valves_tubes.pdf

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

maybe this might refresh your thinking regarding the experts?
http://www.acdelco.com/pdf/appcat_buyers/inline_filters_valves_tubes.pdf

That table seems to apply at least partially to the screen filter almost always included as a part of the orifice assembly. Some table lines even seem to apply to the standard dryer/filter, a third category seems to be simply screen filters designed into the system but NOT as a component part of the orifice tube.

Screen filters are not in the class of "fine" filter you seem to want to wish to require as a part of your condensor installation

[brads911sc]

Here are ALL the ebay listings for any filter related to AC.

filter | eBay

They are all driers just like the ones that come on our cars.

With the exception of a handful of GM parts you referenced...

Interestingly enough, I did find ONE GM inline filter that is newer than 2000. It fits only one system on only 2011 cars for the 3.9 and 4.6 liter engines in only the Buick and Cadillac models. I could find NO other AC systems of any make or model that does not use the standard filter/drier. It is NOT used in Chevrolet or GMC which I also found odd. It is Odd to me that this filter is only for 1 model year and such a limited scope if ALL AC manufacturers were recommending them in ALL their systems as you have stated as fact and common knowledge.

ACDelco 15-33197 Air Conditioning Inline Filter | eBay

Again, I would move beyond the filter idea and focus on development and real world testing of your primary product.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

maybe this might refresh your thinking regarding the experts?
http://www.acdelco.com/pdf/appcat_buyers/inline_filters_valves_tubes.pdf

"This" makes a lot more sense insofar as an inline filter "after the fact" requirement.

http://www.airsept.com/Articles/CompressorGuard/ACDelcoTechConnectJanFeb05.pdf