Basic alignment question - camber & toe

[bkreigsr]

If I dial in more negative camber (via Chuck's trick plates) what happens to toe?
I'm guessing I'm also dialing in more toe-out?
Is there a direct relationship in degrees of neg camber and inches of toe?
thanks
Bill K

[DRACO A5OG]

Yes, when ever you mess with Camber you need to check the toe.

Especially in the rears, they are connected diagnally.

[euro911sc]

The effect in the front is a lot less. The rear is tied together so you have to adjust both at the same time, effectively. Unless you get chuck's ASP setup that was designed to de-couple that adjustment

for the front I'll mess with camber and not worry too much about toe until I'm done. Then I'll do a cursory check and adjust as needed.

Most important for the front, IMHO, is caster. I just moved my strut tops back 1/8" and WOW what a difference. Still not where I want it, but worlds better than what I had.

If you mess with camber in the front you will most likely be messing with caster at the same time unless you have camber plates installed. Camber plates/boxes allow you to move in a straight slotted grove so you adjust only in one plane at a time. Very nice

-Michael

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by euro911sc

.....unless you have camber plates installed. Camber plates/boxes allow you to move in a straight slotted grove so you adjust only in one plane at a time. Very nice
-Michael

thanks Michael. those are the trick (ER quick adjust) plates I was referring to.
Bill K

[euro911sc]

Well if you pull the strut top in you are shortening the distance between the steering knuckle and the tie rod end. since these are connected the knuckle will be held in place and the strut will turn into the front of the car making your toe go more negative

How much per deg. camber... I have no idea, but I bet it depends just as much or more on your caster angle as well. Low caster=less change.

Experiment and let us know!

-Michael

[KTL]

Keep in mind though that the tie rods have some pivoting ability to them at both ends. Point being is you can change the angle of the steering arm (by adjusting camber or caster a bit) and not effect toe a whole lot. Nonetheless it's good practice to check it after you've messed with camber or caster. And you don't need an alignment shop to do it for you. Get a pair of toe plates (or make your own) and you'll be surprised how easy it is to adjust front toe. Rear toe is more involved since the rear wheels are not joined by a rack like the fronts.

Toe is also changed by ride height. If you diddle with the height of the car, you definitely want to check your toe. On a few occasions some friends and I have tweaked the height a bit and it threw off the handling of the car quite noticeably (at the track). I raised the front spring perches of my racecar a little bit and didn't check front toe, friend dropped the rear of his car and didn't check front toe. Both cars handled like poop- lots of understeer. Both of us found the front toe to be quite a bit out of whack

[burgermeister]

Adding neg camber in front will give you toe-in, not toe out, I think. And it's more than you might expect. Like KTL says, make some toe plates (mine are from construction lumber!) - you can check it in about 2 minutes.

I prefer my car with less caster - I have as little as possible. Different folks, different strokes.

KTL, I've had good luck using a cheapie laser level for rear toe. I made a spacer block that sits against the rim (also used for checking camber). I then bungee the level / spacer to the rear wheel. In front, I then measure distance from the laser spot / line to the wheel center. I make sure both sides are equal, and I use the toe plates to see the amount of toe. I find it easier than setting up strings.

[rusnak]

^that's a neat idea.

[bkreigsr]

thanks for the responses - very helpful and informative
is this what we are talking about regarding 'toe plate'? - looks like it would be pretty easy to make a wood version.


once all the variables have been filtered out (sidewall irregularities), just measure from the front and rear plate slots with a tape? measure the distance from a front-to-rear string, or right-side to left-side tires?

Bill K

[burgermeister]

This is what mine look like. You need an offset to clear the bulge at the bottom of the tire.

If you make your toe plates 28.6" long, your tape measure (assuming it's inches) will measure degrees of toe per wheel directly (ie, if you measure 1/4" of toe-in, that's 0.25 degrees, or 15', of toe-in per wheel)

[bkreigsr]

thanks burgermeister
what are the reference / anchor points for the other end of the tape measure - some point on the chassis?

[RoninLB]

to avoid pressing the front wheels I add 1/8" to my toe in

also my routine:
level floor
3/4 full gas tank
driver's weight in seat

strings help avoid dog tracking

different strokes..........

[burgermeister]

bkreigsr,
See the little slots (1/8" wide saw kerfs) at the end of the wood plates? I hook the tape into the front slot on one side, and measure to the other side. Repeat for the rear. The difference between the two measurements is what matters. A standard 25' 3/4" wide tape measure can be fished into the slot from the other side of the car without much difficulty.

RoninLB makes a good point on the car setup. Fuel level has a measurable effect on toe. I imagine driver weight would also.