Rear Engine versus Mid-Engine Handling

[dentist90]

Originally Posted by vracer

I'll answer a question with a question. How many race car builders build rear engine cars?

I agree. Mid engine is no doubt the best place for an engine, handling wise. The 911 was designed as a 2 + 2 touring car with ample luggage space. So I'll answer with a followup question:
How many race cars have back seats?

[winders]

Originally Posted by winders

Front engined cars are evil handling too.....I'll take rear engined over front engined all day long and twice on Sunday!

Scott

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

Seriously...?

I think the average driver is much more able to cope with front-engine vices (limit understeer, power oversteer) than rear-engine ones (trailing oversteer)... in a front-engine car, you simply lift, and things will most often straighten themselves out. Try that in a 911

But perhaps you were kidding...

Regards

d.

Seriously. No, I was not kidding. Maybe you prefer a front engined car. I don't. As far as I am concerned, the front engined compromise you seem to embrace is evil.

Scott

[xpensivewino]

I have driven both high horsepower 911's and 914/4's and /6's over the past 20 years. They are both excellent performers in their own right. When designing a fast and great handling sports car with computers and physics in mind, one would always end up with a mid-engine. When designing a car for quickness, interior space and mass appeal for the mass market, and have it be track worthy, the 911 is simply unequaled. Total the number of international motor sports wins for the 911 chasis, and pit it against all the mid engined "street car " wins in motor sport, and it is not even close. For all out pace on a track, the mid engine is surely a better handler though.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by winders

Seriously. No, I was not kidding. Maybe you prefer a front engined car. I don't. As far as I am concerned, the front engined compromise you seem to embrace is evil.

Scott

A lot of cars like the 928 and 944 are not so evil, some will even save you if you screw up.

[Dan J]

I currently own an 09 Cayman S that I'm running in Grand Am (Noble racing #06) and an 05 996 cup that I run in PCA club racing. Admittedly the cup has better tires- Michelin slicks vs Continental/Hoosier GA spec. Of the two I really prefer the cup

[redridge]

+1 on the 911.... the platform just talk to the driver more than a mid engine will. Its not so much about who is faster, but more about which one is more predictable, especially the modern 911.

[Flieger]

The 911 has so many wins because Porsche, who continues to be the only major manufacturer using the rear engine in a street car converted to race car (Cup), wants to race their "premium" product. If the 911 did not have the history, they would make the Cayman their premium model (read more expensive and more power) and race it.

The Carrera GT and 918 have mid-engines, and they cost more than GT3s.

Porsche admitted that the reason they do not race the Cayman or develop a mid-engine car is because it is easier and cheaper to stick with the 911 and just ask for balance of performance regulations to keep them competetive with the BMWs and Ferraris.

[jluetjen]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

Two words: Vic Elford.

13 more: While he could have any Porsche he wanted, his favorite platform was/is....

Ehhh.... care to clue me in? I must have missed that interview.

[Flieger]

Why is there a Cayman on his book?

Vic Elford: official web site

[Nine17]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

Two words: Vic Elford.

13 more: While he could have any Porsche he wanted, his favorite platform was/is....

Wow. What a great thread!

I don't know what "interview" this might be in, but I can confirm: At the Friends of Steve McQueen car show I stayed at the same hotel as Vic Elford and had a nice chat with him in the lobby. A few months previously I had helped load up one of the 1970 Targa Florio 916/6 practice cars that a couple of my friends had found gathering dust in a suburban garage. I asked Vic if he had driven the car. He had. For one lap. Hated it. Much preferred the 911.

There's a reason that the rear-engined 911 is still competitive today: predictable weight transfer and excellent traction. I love my 911.

[petevb]

"Mid vs Rear Engine Debate" is a terrible name for that article. That's a comparison of the Cayman R vs the 997 GT3 and almost nothing more. Testing the two cars on those particular settings tells us very little about the mid vs rear engine debate. Every single result in that test can be explained with tires and swaybar settings (Which were set where- the GT3 is adjustable? It would be interesting to see that spin test on different settings...).

I can detail a much better comparison:
A friend of mine is a national level SCCA autocross competitor who recently switch from a Super Stock 996 GT3 to a Cayman S. While the classes are different the rules are the same, meaning the mods are limited (shocks, Hoosier A6s, muffler, etc). Both cars are built close to the limits of the rules, but the GT3 had far more development time. He runs a data acquisition system in both cars and I've seen the output.

The cars are overall very similar on paper, with very similar size, race weight, tire widths, same brakes (PCCB) etc. The major difference is a) engine position, b) no LSD for the Cayman and c) the GT3 dynos at +~100 hp, which is huge.

The result is that in autocross conditions the Cayman is much faster than it has any right to be on paper. Much faster through the slalom. Pulls more Gs though the corners. Allows you to get on the throttle sooner. The Cayman is in a lower class, but it's much closer to the former markers in SS class than expected.

If you control for all the things the magazine didn't, ie tires, power, setup, etc, there is no question which would be faster.

All that said, my friend's feedback is that the Cayman is almost boring to drive compared to the GT3, and he's not sure how long he's going to keep it. So if you ask me if I'd rather drive a mid or a rear engine car, I guess you know my answer from my signature...