911 converted to mid engine?

[Todd Simpson]

They were quickly withdrawn as to not tarnish the company's cash cow not to be seen again.

Complete hooey. Please post a source for this.

[LakeCleElum]

Originally Posted by fred cook

A friend of mine once put a 455 Toronado engine and gearbox in a Corvair Coupe body. It was a mid engine mount, the engine taking the place of the rear seats. With limited room for rear tires, it was impossible to use full throttle from a start but once it hooked up, the acceleration was pretty phenomenal. Even with a fabricated firewall between the new engine compartment and the front seats it was really too noisy/loud to carry on a conversation. Another idea that looked better on paper than worked in reality!

Fred: I know a guy that did the same thing with a 455 into a VW Bug back in the '80's. It was his college "Auto Engineering" Project. He took me for a ride.....When accelerating, he had to "feather" the throttle so the front wheels could touch down for steering corrections.....Scary to ride in.

[Joe Bob]

Originally Posted by Todd Simpson

Complete hooey. Please post a source for this.

Probably not going to find the statement in print. But Porsche never fully supported the 914/6. It gave it a detuned 911T, never fully supported the race teams despite good showing in Europe....

What REALLY killed the 914/6 was when VW upped the ante on the Karmann supplied bodies. Raising the price to the 911 level.

[YTNUKLR]

A mid-engine car and a 911 are just different. I have been reading Excellence Was Expected and he discusses how the original 356 was changed to a rear-engine concept from the No.1 Mid-engine car. This was done to improve interior space, which obviously makes for a more livable street car.

If you are going all-out on handling and having an engine right behind you (noise), and the loss of some interior room are not a hindrance to you, a mid-engine design is better.

If you are trying to maintain more of a street car status, ie., some more usability factor, I would argue the 911 is a more suitable car.

Porsche surely realized the limitations of a rear-engine design early on, however, ultimately whenever they could take advantage of rules and get more power and were limited by traction in the car, the rear-engine design proved advantageous. Just look at the dominance of something like a 935. Any deficiency in the turns was more than made up for by the dragster-like performance down the straights. An equivalent mid-engine or front-engine car just wouldn't have the traction to hook up. However, you do see when Porsche has enough traction for the mandated power with a mid-engine design, they use it (917/30, GT1, DP cars, etc.,etc). Note that most of these are pure racing applications.

[Flieger]

First GT car to finish, and 6th overall, 1970 LeMans: 914/6 GT.

[RSBob]

Here is part of the 911 dilemma ... in the 1000 km Rennen Nurburgring on May 31, 1970, driven by Gerhard Quist and Dietrich Krumm The Porsche 914-6GT went on to win 9 of its next 12 ADAC series races, setting lap records at Hockenhein, Germany and Zolder, Belgium, and was described as 'Europe's Fastest GT' by the German Press. The source is the historical record.


Brumos 914-6GT IMSA champion, 1971
Sunauto 914-6GT Le Mans GT class win, 1970
EFR SCCA national champion, 1972 year?
Factory 914-6GT 86 hour Nurburgring winner, 1970 (also finished 2nd and 3rd)

1 and 2 in GT Class 1000 km of Zeltweg (AUSTRIA) 1970

1 and 2 in GT Class 24 hrs of Daytona

1 in GT Class 1000 km of Monza (Italy) 1971

1 in GT Class 1000 km of Spa (Belgium) 1971

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 in GT Class 1000 km of Nurburgring (Germany) 1971

1 in GT Class 1000 km of Zeltweg (AUSTRIA) 1971

1 in GT Class 6 hrs of Watkins Glen 1971

[Jagshund]

Originally Posted by Flieger

You wonder why more were not converted? Well, it is not a simple job. You are basically building your own special tube frame race car at that point, so I think most would just move up to a proper race car like a 962 because it just makes more sense. Less work and money to just buy a good race car already rather than try to overcome the 911's inherent defficiencies.

Basically, there will always be compromises making a street car into a race car. At some point there is no street car left and a mid-engine 911 really isn't a 911 anymore. It is even less a 911 than a 935 I would say. It just becomes a (very cool) silhouette racing car.

I second this. My car is headed to Alabama for what will probably amount to a year under the knife just for the Boxster suspension install. Have a jig in the garage to do it myself but I'm playing in the desert for a year. Not easy but should be a fun car.

[Caferacer]

Be safe in the desert. And thank you.

[Jim2]

To the original poster:

Though I'm not certain about this I think that the mid engine format requires that the wheel base be extended because there is not sufficient distance from the rear axle line to the rear of the drivers seat. A tape measure and five minutes....

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Fabcar 993

Musante still services that car.

Loren at 911 Design has one as well. But he recently reskinned it as a Cayman.

We're in the process of making a sequential gearbox that will potentially end up in both these vehicles.

Regards,

Matt

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Jim2

To the original poster:

Though I'm not certain about this I think that the mid engine format requires that the wheel base be extended because there is not sufficient distance from the rear axle line to the rear of the drivers seat. A tape measure and five minutes....

There is a good bit of space in the rear seat area. If it is a race car you could put up with being cozy with the engine. Although, the 914 wheelbase is longer than the 911 by a good few inches.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Musante still services that car.

Loren at 911 Design has one as well. But he recently reskinned it as a Cayman.

We're in the process of making a sequential gearbox that will potentially end up in both these vehicles.

Regards,

Matt

Uhh, a mid-engine tube frame 911 with a Cayman body.

So, that means you made a Cayman out of a 911. There is nothing 911 left. But it never was not a Cayman to begin with. So what is it? Don't know what to say about that one. Sort of makes my head hurt.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Todd Simpson

Complete hooey. Please post a source for this.

anyone who has followed Porsche for any amount of time knows this, as Joe Bob pointed out, the 914-6, it was very clear what they could do on the race tracks, another was the 944 Turbos, in 1989, a 930 was only slightly faster than the 951s, (something that could be changed for less than $1K on a 951) a fair amount more money and much harder to drive (that is a Plus to some of us). Then with the current line up, why do you think Porsche hasn't been using the same base engines in all models It would have been cheaper across the board to the same size boxer 6 in all models.

[Joe Bob]

They are doing the same with the Caymans....lower hp motors versus the flagship model tail draggers. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Most Porsche noobs wanna a four seater.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Uhh, a mid-engine tube frame 911 with a Cayman body.

So, that means you made a Cayman out of a 911. There is nothing 911 left. But it never was not a Cayman to begin with. So what is it? Don't know what to say about that one. Sort of makes my head hurt.

I didn't do anything.
Here's a thread with picture of it from the Portland Rose Cup earlier this year.
914World.com - A Porsche 914 Community / Forum / Club

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

They are doing the same with the Caymans....lower hp motors versus the flagship model tail draggers. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to beat Porsche at their own game.
987.2 DFI Cayman S 3.8 Conversion - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Jim2

To the original poster:

Though I'm not certain about this I think that the mid engine format requires that the wheel base be extended because there is not sufficient distance from the rear axle line to the rear of the drivers seat. A tape measure and five minutes....

Not exactly right, in a narrow bodied LWB 911, there is more than enough room and it is possible to fit a mid-mounted 3.6 engine without moving the rear axle line or drivers seat. Maybe a SWB 911 would be too tight a squeeze.

I've spent a lot more than 5 mins with tape measure and know this can be done as I am in the early stages of designing such a car.

There are ways to find the extra room, some less obvious than others but it is possible to have the rear bulkead no further forward than the b-pillar

[iamchappy]

Why go through the bother of converting the 911 to mid-engine, just build one of these like i did.....

[OttoB]

That's sick!!! Great job, chaps...

[YTNUKLR]

That is a really cool 914.

My only point was as a rule , in racing, 914s (and mid-engine cars) are extremely good, and better race cars, as long as you have the tire for the power. If it is a race of two equal 250hp cars, ceteris paribus, a rear-engine car is going to hook up better on acceleration but probably be worse otherwise. If it is a race of two 600hp cars, ceteris paribus, the rear-engine car is going to hook up better on acceleration but probably be worse otherwise.

Now, how important is hooking up on acceleration vs. everything else you want the car to do?

Other considerations- Noise, looks, comfort, trunk space?