Billy Boat Headers and Muffler anyone with before and after comparison

[911dean]

I'm looking at this set up for my '84 Carrera. I've read the older negatives about the mufflers but after talking to them I'm really considering their exhaust. The headers look really nice. I'm just looking for some feedback. Thanks.
Dean

[Chuck.H]

Sorry I don't have good things to say about them - Mine had the 2k RPM drone, and they only bolt up to each other. The heat exchangers cracked eventually, but I can't fault them for that, as I got over 100k out of them, hmmm maybe 150k.

I have the SSI + M&K single out and it's fantastic compared to the B&B setup.

Best,
Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 337k miles

[fireant911]

I, too, have nothing good to say about B&B products. The previous owner had spent $2,600 on the system which came on the car when I bought it. Although it photographed good, the system itself was loud, had an annoying drone, and was poorly constructed (the muffler had lots of cracks). When one of the muffler straps broke, I never could get a response from B&B concerning my purchasing another strap. I removed the system and replaced it with the original-type SC heat exchangers and muffler. My neighbors expressed much happiness when I removed this system because of the noise (not only was it obnoxiously loud, it sounded bad... did I mention the drone?) I would strongly recommend looking elsewhere.

[911Freak]

Well, I really like mine.... I bought it right after buying my SC in 2004, prior to finding Pelican etc. I would probably have bought a M&K but didn't know any better..

I noticed better performance, immediately, had to tweak the afr as the free flowing muffler leaned the engine out.. But I like the sound and really enjoy the performance gains...
Haven't noticed a drone either.

For a comparison:
Recently Put my stock muffler back on for a week and it felt like the car had lost 20hp and was breathing out thru a straw compared to the free flowing BB muffler. Gone was the snappy throttle response from my engine (aluminum clutch PP etc) and back was the anemic feeling I had previous to the high flow exhaust.

After passing smog the BB muffler will be back on post hast!

Clearly YMMV.

Edit: I do not have the entire BB exhaust system, only the muffler and tip, stock Euro SC 3.0 with H/E not headers...

[Joeaksa]

Dean,

Which engine do you have in your car? If its the stock 3.2, then SSI's will work fine. If its been uprated to a 3.6 like I have then the SSI's are too small and you are really losing power.

The early models of the BB exhaust did have a drone but have heard that the newer systems do not do this. I have a set of BB's that are not far from being bolted onto my 3.6 and if its too loud or drones I will put a different muffler on it.

Cannot understand someone complaining about anything that lasts 100-150k miles on a car. This is just silly...

Joe A

[KTL]

Good headers. Mufflers notsomuch because of the cracking and they're really heavy.

One thing people tend to overlook as to why the mufflers crack is the mounting bracket. The B&B bracket is just stamped steel angle with slots in it. It needs to be supported/triangulated to avoid bending and tearing. Once it tears, then some of the weight of the muffler (like I said, these suckers are HEAVY) is now being supported by the headers. As the muffler moves up & down, the muffler inlets crack on the sides.

Also keep in mind that you have to replace the engine scavenge line with their custom braided line. Two ways you can go with it- over the transmission or under the engine.






You also need to do something about the oil tank line (rubber S-hose that connects oil tank to oil pump inlet pipe beneath engine oil cooler) because the hose can touch the headers and melt. B&B provides a custom fabricated steel line that connects with some silcone unions.

Nice system for the most part that has a few compromises in terms of installation. The big downside is obviously the muffler cracking issue. But that can be addressed by reinforcing the mounting bracket like this- gray bracket in the picture is a modified B&B muffler bracket with steel strips welded on the sides to reinforce it.



In my opinion if you're looking for something that fits like a glove, just like the factory original exhaust, you just simply can't beat the SSI headers. They are so darn nice and fit perfectly. Plus you can use factory-style backdated oil lines and various factory-style mufflers too. For a basically stock engine, the SSIs are not giving up a ton of power to the B&B stuff.

[Joeaksa]

Kevin,

Will the oil line used with SSI's work with the BB system?

Thx, Joe

[KTL]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Kevin,

Will the oil line used with SSI's work with the BB system?

Thx, Joe

Yes!

Here's a 3.6 install I worked on with a friend in my garage

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Kevin,

Will the oil line used with SSI's work with the BB system?

Thx, Joe

yes



the mufflers IMO are junk, the headers have been fine

[Chuck.H]

Joe writes:
>>Cannot understand someone complaining about anything that lasts 100-150k miles on a car. This is just silly...

Hi Joe -
For the record, I said I CAN'T fault them for that. To answer your other points, I wasn't able to bolt another muffler onto the B&B headers because they used a non-standard (for Porsche) collector flange, 3 hole vs 2 hole. I was able to use the braided oil line from the B&B system with my SSI, but IIRC it had to be re-routed slightly differently.

Best regards,
Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 337k miles

[Bill Verburg]

The only issue w/ ssi's on a 3.2 is that they are a little small, especially if it's a track car, for street use they are going to be fine, conversely the 1/75" B&B is a little big, but they also used to have a 1 5/8" header that was just about right

for ultimate performance you'd want something a little fancier but then you usually have to give up heat.

[wkondas]

I have the B&B headers and 2 in 2 out muffler on a 3.6 conversion. I personally love the sound. I'm someone who seldom listens to the radio when I drive and using cell phones is illegal in BC while driving so the db's are not a big deal for me. The sound under hard acceleration is incredible.

[KTL]

I guess my post only talked about the installation and didn't really answer your question- before & after.

Changing the exhaust definitely wakes up these cars. The factory cat. conv. and muffler definitely choke some power and of course sound. There's no question you'll notice a difference in throttle response and power. But it's not monumental increase. Plus you really should consider getting a re-mapped ECU chip to take advantage of the exhaust change.

[Joeaksa]

One other thing. Have been told that it takes a special wrench to get to the exhaust nuts when installing the BB headers. Guessing that its only with the ones with heater boxes but it does look like a pain.

Make sure you have the wrench before starting this...

[gtc]

Actually the B&Bs are pretty easy to install. Easier than SSIs, in my opinion.
I sold my B&Bs because the heater boxes are crap and because the S-hose replacement didn't fit my car well. But I do miss the sound/performance.

[Joeaksa]

Graham,

So do you need a special wrench to get them on and off or can it be done without one?

Thx,

Joe A

[Quicksilver]

I've been using the B&Bs on my 87 for about 5 years which includes swapping out for the stock exhaust every 2 years to smog it.

Overall...
The good:
- The engine pulls much harder on the upper end and runs hard right to the rev limiter.
- Available in the 1-5/8" that works good for the 3.2.
- You get heat.
- The price was right. You can find B&Bs for a reasonable price if you have patience. (I got mine with muffler for $600.)

The bad:
- I don't think that B&B has an engineer on staff as the location of a bunch of stuff is badly thought out and hasn't changed even though they have sold them for years. Specifically: ->
- The passenger side primaries run in contact with the "S" oil return hose.
- The heater outlet on the driver's side is routed through the splash shield for no good reason.
- The oil lines need to be changed for any header solution.
- The muffler (to me) sounds like a loud, ricey, bunch of rocks being shaken in a can. YMMV
- The exhaust nuts are hard to get to.
- There were lots of reports of cracking on the early B&B stuff but it seems to have been resolved.


I'm continuing to use the B&Bs because I have them, they work, and I have gotten around the limitations.
- For the S hose issue I don't have the stupid B&B hose with the sink trap designed in. I use the stock hose and I shortened the end at the tank as far as I could then I wrapped the primaries with insulating wrap. It has worked for 4 years.
- For the oil line issue I use the Elephant Universal Crossover tube. It is for 915 trans cars but I ground down the rib on my G50 to accept it. You will need something like this no matter which headers you convert to. Getting rid of the need to switch oil lines when swapping exhausts is wonderful.
- The routing of the heat through the heat shield is just engineering stupidity but it is easily solved with tin snips.
- I hated the muffler so I welded up an arrangement to use a non Porsche dual in / dual out and it sounds much better to me. Fairly quite until it hits 2800.
- I use copper plated exhaust nuts and they are 12mm instead of 13mm. The exhaust nuts are a pain but doable with a standard 12mm Craftsman combo wrench.

[gtc]

I have been using the single out mufflers, and they are not ricey at all. The noise level is very reasonable, and they have a nice tone. No real drone. I've gotten a lot of compliments on them.... more than the stock, m&k, triad, and stock->converted sport mufflers. They sound very similar on both the B&B and SSI headers. They are about as loud as I can tolerate for daily driving and long trips. Any louder and I would need hearing protection.

Joe, I use a flex gear wrench and the copper plated nuts that Wayne mentions... aside from the usual rusty stud issues when removing the stock HEs, I though they were easy to install/remove.

My first muffler did not crack at all. My second muffler has cracked twice now. I think Kevin is correct in his analysis of why they crack. To their credit, B&B was easy to deal with and fixed my muffler quickly and for free. So perhaps their customer service has improved.

[911dean]

SSI's are really starting to look like a better option.

Dean

[Joeaksa]

Thanks guys!

Joe