Earlier vs. Later 911's

[TBailey]

Hello..longer time lurker, after winding up with a 993 I found myself pretty active over on that other board.

Anyway I've been thinking about switching things up and going with an early 911. I've got a decent offer on the table somewhat out of the blue, so it's getting a lot more serious now rather than just kicking the idea around. Before I found my car, I had looked at a couple SC's and an '84 Carrera (and a 964 C4 Targa in such bad shape it's not worth mentioning). I really liked those cars; they felt lighter and nimble, but still built extremely well and seem like they'd be a snap to work on. However they either had optimistic asking prices or transmission issues (or both), so I passed and then stumbled in to my car. But after seeing some R Gruppe cars at track events and at a car show at work, I've got the long-hood bug something fierce.

So what I've seen on the subject is that the early 911's drive a lot different from the 964, which drives a bit differently than the 993, which drive nothing like 996+. Assuming equal conditions, is a pre-'74 car going to behave roughly the same as the early '80s cars I sampled? Or should I try and find someone with an early car willing to swap rides for a bit?

Any input appreciated!!

[Flieger]

Definately swap rides. Preferrably with one of the R Gruppe guys. If you are not hooked yet, you will be.

[Ole Petter]

Hi
From what I have experienced with the earlier cars, having had the opportunity to drive a 1968 S and a 1973 E (in original spec with the correct wheels and tires) they are very different.
The 1968 felt much more like a "vintage" car - with very lively handling. The steering is the best I have ever experienced - brimming with feel and it gave unique feedback :-) The 2.0 liter S engine is low on torque and you need to rev it, so it is very different to the 2.4E engine that is much more like the later 3,0 cars with more torque, but it still revved very high and had a much wider powerband, but still with the "screaming" top end, but not like the 2.0 S engine.
The E was also a very lively car to drive but not to the degree the 1968 was. Both cars felt nothing like the later cars as they have much less grip - But feel more adjustable and lively without the more "understeered" and "safe" feel of the newer cars with wider rear wheels and tires and a lot more grip.

I loved the 1968S - it was a stunning car! The E likewise was fabulous, but it felt closer to the never 3.0 cars in feel. More modern and "tighter" in a way in "feel".

I guess You have to go for a test-drive to find out for yourself! .-) But I think the earlier cars have a unique feel and are very, very special cars. You can also watch the Alois Ruf (history) series on Youtube and hear what he says about the older cars at the beginning :-)

This is just my opinion, and the cars I have driven may not be representable for other cars... I have driven of codriven most 911's by now and I find it very interesting to experience the differences :-)

I guess in an older car one needs to adapt more to the way the car handles! Maybe one does feel more like a "hero" driving the older cars because of that? One has to master the car and really get to know how they handle at the limit, to get the best out of them. Driving an older car at speed is a blast

A newer car will of course be more "effective" or "better" and cover ground a much higher speed.

[WPOZZZ]

I've had an 85 RoW cab, 79 930, 80 911SC, a 99 996, and a 964 turbo in addition to my 86 turbo.

I loved the 85 cab as it handled great and I love cabs. I also had the benefit of the 231 hp motor with LSD in the car. I thought it was a great car. A few years later, i finished restoring my 80 Weissach and let me tell you, the driving feel in that cat was much better than the 85 cab. It could be the difference between cab and coupe, but I think it was much more than that. The SC seemed to be much lighter and more tossable than the Carrera. I didn't drive them back to back, but have driven other Carreras at my friend's shop, and they all seem a little heavy in the steering. The SC seems to be much more lively and the motor was torquier.

My feeling is if there is that much difference in five years, the longhoods must feel incredible to drive. Just make sure you get a good one that has been cared for. I'm still lusting over a longhood, but am putting most of my disposable income towards a house renovation that is almost finished.

[Ole Petter]

RUF History part 1 - YouTube
From 5.40...

[LakeCleElum]

LongHoods drive much differently than the mid 80's models you mention. It's mainly about tire size and weight. If drove an '86 once and felt it steered "heavy" at low speeds. Luv the way my '73.5 drives.

[cjannelli]

I've owned early 356 models both coupe and roadster. A 66 912, 83SC, 89 Carrera targa and now an 87 Carrera coupe. The 87 is a joy to drive. The best Porsche I've owned though,
was a 73.5T. Only 140HP, but light, nimble, smooth with enough power for spirited driving.
The 87 fits my needs but I would jump for a longhood if I lived in a climate that allowed for driving anytime I wanted.
Chris J
Oregon

[TBailey]

Thank you for the input, gentlemen. Sounds like I need to find someone willing to let me in the driver's seat, but I think I'll like what I find!

[Bill Verburg]

what you feel in the early cars through ~'73 vs the later cars from '74 to '77 then from '78 to '89 is 2 things, lets forget the swb cars as they are a world unto themselves
1) the earliest have a lite nimble feeling because of relatively low polar moments and lite skinny tires, and big skinny steering wheels, these are fun as long as you don't really push things but they give up a lot of grip at speed because of the tires, they are good track cars w/ R rubber and using 4x 7x15 wheels.

2) the mid years got the heavier bumpers but still had the smaller wheels so are a middle step between the early and later cars, you will get the lite nimble feeling back by just removing the DoT crash bumpers and replacing them w/ some light weight aftermarket parts.

3) w/ the SCs they started using even wider stickier and heavier wheels and tires, replace the crash bumpers and wheels w/ 2x 7x15 & 2x 8x15 Fuchs and approprite sticky tires and you will get back the feel of the early cars.

steering wheel size makes a difference too, these are 2 way communication devices and will dance in you hands, the bigger the wheel the more mechanical advantage and the more you feel the front wheels, the smaller the wheel the less

lastly Bilstein shocks make a small but still nice reduction in unsprung weight and ride quality while also enhancing handling,

for ultimate grip at the expense of some weight and gearing use 8 & 9.5 x18 wheels and DoT R tires, the low speed steering will be a bear but at speed you will get enormous grip as long as the rest of the suspension is set up to handle it

[Porchcar guy]

I would love to hear what Grady says about the differences in the 911 years. I believe he has had a SWB longhood forever as well as great knowledge of the later years. It may help you to contact him thru a PM.

[Rot 911]

I owned a '72 "E" and now an '86 3.2. The '72 was fun, but the '86, with mods, is night and day more fun. It's easy to drop a couple of hundred pounds from the '86 and mildly bump up the HP (I said easy, not cheap). With that you have a fun car that I suggest is hands down a better car than a long hood. Faster, better handling, and definitely more comfortable on long drives.

The love affair with long hoods only started around 10 years ago. Before that, they were very inexpensive 911's. Cool looking cars, but more fun to drive? I think not.

[Reiver]

I like the modernity of the Sc's and the 3.0 a great deal...lighten the car up and you have a great old style new 911...well, reletively new for a 30 year old car....

[TBailey]

Where did the SC's start picking up weight? Was it primarily in the big bumpers?

One draw for me to the early cars though is emissions, or more accurately the lack thereof; I'm a hot rodder at heart and I'm also a big fan of California, where I'd eventually like to relocate to. In WA, it's anything 25+ years old is exempt, but I'm trying to think long(er) term this time around.

[vracer]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

what you feel in the early cars through ~'73 vs the later cars from '74 to '77 then from '78 to '89 is 2 things, lets forget the swb cars as they are a world unto themselves
1) the earliest have a lite nimble feeling because of relatively low polar moments and lite skinny tires, and big skinny steering wheels, these are fun as long as you don't really push things but they give up a lot of grip at speed because of the tires, they are good track cars w/ R rubber and using 4x 7x15 wheels.

2) the mid years got the heavier bumpers but still had the smaller wheels so are a middle step between the early and later cars, you will get the lite nimble feeling back by just removing the DoT crash bumpers and replacing them w/ some light weight aftermarket parts.

3) w/ the SCs they started using even wider stickier and heavier wheels and tires, replace the crash bumpers and wheels w/ 2x 7x15 & 2x 8x15 Fuchs and approprite sticky tires and you will get back the feel of the early cars.

steering wheel size makes a difference too, these are 2 way communication devices and will dance in you hands, the bigger the wheel the more mechanical advantage and the more you feel the front wheels, the smaller the wheel the less

lastly Bilstein shocks make a small but still nice reduction in unsprung weight and ride quality while also enhancing handling,

for ultimate grip at the expense of some weight and gearing use 8 & 9.5 x18 wheels and DoT R tires, the low speed steering will be a bear but at speed you will get enormous grip as long as the rest of the suspension is set up to handle it

What he said.

The '73.5 hit a real sweet spot, but they are getting hard to find. The '74-77 cars with their 2.7 engines can be an interesting car. Now there are fixes for most, if not all the problems. Because of the bad rep of the engine the cars are relatively cheap, but still light and lively.

My '89 is very stable, but also very 'heavy' feeling, especially at lower speeds.

The cars just LOOK the same. (To the uninitiated.)

[Reiver]

The cars picked up more amenities...all Sc's in the US came with Ac, more sound/heat insulation, more interior...center console, large arm rests, electric mirrors, big blocks of rubber on the rear bumper, etc...it all adds up. They are still not overweight per se but by removing some/all of these items you can get a car that has a long hood/early feel with less worries about carbs/ points etc.
You will not have the long hood look tho and that is a minus for many.
Another reason I like the Sc's is that is the model that saved the 911 line from extinction.
Good save.
California has the most stringent emissions...I'm not sure they even do an exemption on age anymore or what the law might be.
No issue in Az....I've lost the cat system altogether and have a free flow exhaust system.

[TBailey]

Originally Posted by vracer

What he said.

Wowsa, how did I miss his post...too much multitasking (multislacking?) at work I suppose.

But thanks Bill, your input is always incredibly informative, glad you can be found over here as well!

[al lkosmal]

Don't overlook the early hot rods. I have a 73.5 with an 87 3.2 for motivation , that I think is the best of both worlds..............light, nimble, but with serious grunt and the tires/suspension and the associated mods to make it all work.






regards,
Al

[TBailey]

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

Don't overlook the early hot rods.

Forget..? They're my primary targets! My ideal starting point at least is a sunroof coupe, flared and engine swapped. I'm tempted to start with a 912 at times, it's been a long time since I built an engine and that would be a nice excuse, though the costs would leave me second guessing that idea as someone with a mere mortal's budget.

Very clean car though, I really like those mirrors! Really cleans up the profile a lot..

[Grady Clay]

tbailey,

You are getting some really good advice above from some very knowledgeable members.
Particular are:

Originally Posted by Ole Petter

Hi
From what I have experienced with the earlier cars, having had the opportunity to drive a 1968 S and a 1973 E (in original spec with the correct wheels and tires) they are very different.
The 1968 felt much more like a "vintage" car - with very lively handling. The steering is the best I have ever experienced - brimming with feel and it gave unique feedback :-) The 2.0 liter S engine is low on torque and you need to rev it, so it is very different to the 2.4E engine that is much more like the later 3,0 cars with more torque, but it still revved very high and had a much wider powerband, but still with the "screaming" top end, but not like the 2.0 S engine.
The E was also a very lively car to drive but not to the degree the 1968 was. Both cars felt nothing like the later cars as they have much less grip - But feel more adjustable and lively without the more "understeered" and "safe" feel of the newer cars with wider rear wheels and tires and a lot more grip.

I loved the 1968S - it was a stunning car! The E likewise was fabulous, but it felt closer to the never 3.0 cars in feel. More modern and "tighter" in a way in "feel".

I guess You have to go for a test-drive to find out for yourself! .-) But I think the earlier cars have a unique feel and are very, very special cars. You can also watch the Alois Ruf (history) series on Youtube and hear what he says about the older cars at the beginning :-)

This is just my opinion, and the cars I have driven may not be representable for other cars... I have driven of codriven most 911's by now and I find it very interesting to experience the differences :-)

I guess in an older car one needs to adapt more to the way the car handles! Maybe one does feel more like a "hero" driving the older cars because of that? One has to master the car and really get to know how they handle at the limit, to get the best out of them. Driving an older car at speed is a blast

A newer car will of course be more "effective" or "better" and cover ground a much higher speed.

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

what you feel in the early cars through ~'73 vs the later cars from '74 to '77 then from '78 to '89 is 2 things, lets forget the swb cars as they are a world unto themselves
1) the earliest have a lite nimble feeling because of relatively low polar moments and lite skinny tires, and big skinny steering wheels, these are fun as long as you don't really push things but they give up a lot of grip at speed because of the tires, they are good track cars w/ R rubber and using 4x 7x15 wheels.

2) the mid years got the heavier bumpers but still had the smaller wheels so are a middle step between the early and later cars, you will get the lite nimble feeling back by just removing the DoT crash bumpers and replacing them w/ some light weight aftermarket parts.

3) w/ the SCs they started using even wider stickier and heavier wheels and tires, replace the crash bumpers and wheels w/ 2x 7x15 & 2x 8x15 Fuchs and approprite sticky tires and you will get back the feel of the early cars.

steering wheel size makes a difference too, these are 2 way communication devices and will dance in you hands, the bigger the wheel the more mechanical advantage and the more you feel the front wheels, the smaller the wheel the less

lastly Bilstein shocks make a small but still nice reduction in unsprung weight and ride quality while also enhancing handling,

for ultimate grip at the expense of some weight and gearing use 8 & 9.5 x18 wheels and DoT R tires, the low speed steering will be a bear but at speed you will get enormous grip as long as the rest of the suspension is set up to handle it

I will admit to not having great experience with the later 911s (964, 993 and later) but I have great appreciation for the vastly improved handling performance.
I can tell you first-hand that a well-set-up 993 can do things unheard-of with earlier 911s.


Yes, I have a SWB ’68 911 (normal) that I special ordered new from Porsche K.G.
It has quite a history and has been on almost every significant race track in North America (but not as a race car).
Yes, it has a few (subtle) updates to the suspension (later front suspension assembly to RS specs and a bit more).
Yes, over the past 40+ years, it has had dozens of engines (the original 2.0 is unmolested) including 2.5, 2.8 and (briefly) 3.0. The 2,8S MFI was the best – now in my ‘street’ 914-6.


I recommend you buy someone’s complete and well-sorted LWB (’69-73) lightweight hotrod.
‘Test driving’ an example won’t tell you what you need to know. You need to live with one for a while.
A well-sorted example (you may need to do some of the ‘sorting’) will expose you to the absolute best of the early 911s.

I consider “well-sorted” as being very lightweight with the emphasis on reducing weight in the rear and high. Additionally is the tire/wheel bias (more rear grip) with SC-like rear fenders.
You will find our ‘R-Groupe’ members well versed in these mods.


Yes, the SWB 911s (’65-’68) are yet another experience.
I recommend you enter this world after you play with the LWB (’69-’73) for a while.


If I were to choose a 911 today, it would be to convert a 997 Gen II GT3 CUP back to the street (very lightweight).
A 997 Gen I RS with some mods would be a close second.
Unfortunately my trustees dissuade me from going there so late in life.

My paltry ’79 911SC (with some important mods) will have to do as my semi-daily (’85 Camry with “GT3 CUP” license plate as my all-year daily).

Best,
Grady

[RD911T]

Grady,

Curious about what your "important mods" are on your 78SC?

I've had my 71 Targa for about 4 months and I really enjoy driving an early 911. But I have decided I'm just not a Targa guy. I really want a coupe and I want to hot rod it, that said, I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm thinking I'll put my Targa up for sale and use the funds to find a coupe that has been hot rodded or that I can mod to my own liking.

Tom