Considering a 77 911S Targa, input appreciated!

[CountD]

Originally Posted by rwilner

In my opinion, you'll learn more evaluating the car yourself thoroughly than a PPI will tell you. PPIs are valuable for fully restored concours cars or non-vintage 911s (a 996 for example)...but for all the other cars out there, there is no question you'll find something wrong during a PPI...your car is 30+ years old! Clearly you're not buying this car to be trouble free and maintenance free.

Well put, worded, and excellent advice. This is how I feel as well, but didn't come up with the words first.

[47silver]

where is it i will be happy to get another one if you dont want it

[frankc]

Originally Posted by Targalid

Cash68,
According to Peter Zimmerman, the only 911 model imported in 1977 to the US, as in 1976, was the 911S. So that's what you will be looking at unless it is a Euro model. The 1977 has improved cam chain guides versus the 1976. Otherwise the two years are very similar.

Some more changes for the '77 model year:

• Power Brakes
• Adjustable Spring Plates
• Clutch helper (omega) spring
• Non-opening door vent windows (for anti-theft)
• Center dash fresh air vent
• A/C integrated into center dash vent instead of under dash (if equipped)

I'm sure I'm missing some more but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Even though I had no issues with the case on my 2.7, I made it bullet-proof with all the recommended updates 25 years ago when I was making some engine performance modifications - still no problems 25 years later.

[Lukesportsman]

But its these same vent windows that saved my a$$ when I came home at 1am with the M&K thrumming and realized as I was opening the garage door that I locked myself out with car running. Neighbors were probably very happy that the windows provided such easy access and I was too with just a push of the the roll pin.

[dave 911]

Add me to the list of happy 'middie' owners. I've had my 76 Targa for 28 years, and it's been a great car. I bought it from the original owner, who had the wherewithall to remove the thermal reactors and install an 11 blade fan.

It's easier to work on than the newer ones, and simpler, so less 'stuff' to go wrong like power windows, cruise control, etc...

Mine will probably going to need an engine rebuild before too long, and in a way I'm looking forward to that project if and when it comes, but I'm enjoying it as much now as i did back in 1984!

[ADDvanced]

Quick shot... car is DEFINITELY at 10-15 footer, paint is ROUGH, and there's a lot of issues with the car. Good news is there's only one spec o' rust near a windshield wiper, and the car runs/drives fine. Bad news is the entire engine is wet/leaking oil, even from what appears to be the cylinder/block mating areas (ugh). Targa top needs to be restored, but works, sorta. All the weatherstripping is shot. Paint is coming off on the decklid, and burned through on the upper edge of both doors and fenders. Honestly the car needs a full paintjob, or just keep it as is to be in slightly crusty "driver" status. I'll take more photos this week.

I haven't purchased the car yet, but it is in my garage on an evaluative loan. I wanted to see what all was wrong with it before offering a price.

[rwilner]

sounds like the perfect candidate to develop your car painting skills!!

How's the interior?

[matt gineo]

Buy it, take your time with the repairs and in a few years you'll have a sweet machine!

[timmy2]

Targa top refurbished correctly by a pro = $1000 DIY $300
Paint job by a pro =$5000 and up DIY $300 +
drop and complete engine re-seal with tools DIY$400+. Pro $3000+.
weatherstripping $1000 for entire car plus installation.
Total DIY to start... $2000
total pro to start... $10K

Your car looks and sounds to be in about the same condition my '78 was when I bought it for $6600.
Offer him $6k and go down from there!
Finally, back in the game!

[ADDvanced]

Yeah, I like the car a lot. I'm going to swing by Accumoto and have them sniff it out. So far here are my impressions:

Paint: 4/10. It has paint, but it's pretty terrible. Lots of dings and scuffs and the paint is flaking off and it isn't flat at all. Whatever.
Body: 8/10Straight. Ding in hood from something in cargo area. Dings all over doors. Rust near windshield wiper. Rear big foam bumpers cracking.
Weatherstripping: 1/10 Garbage.
Glass: 10/10 (yay)
Interior: 6/10. Seats are good. Lots of little things are broken or need to be replaced
Targa: 4/10 It's complete but pretty shot.
Brakes: 7/10 Work great, but rear wheels lock up under hard braking. I'm assuming that isn't normal. Didn't check condition of rotors yet.
Tires/wheels : 7/10. Need to be cleaned up but decent
Suspension: 6/10 Decent, but I can tell all the bushings are pretty shot.
Engine: 6/10 It runs decent. Remember it's a 2.9 liter, with about 50k on it. Bit of white smoke at startup. Idles smoothly. Pulls nicely. Leaks everywhere. Exhaust is pretty ratty, lots of welds to patch up holes. As far as I can tell, the heat doesn't work.

What do you guys think it's worth? It has 119,111 miles, the oil was last changed in 1992, with 119,000 miles. Hence, it's been sitting a long, long time.

[rwilner]

My two cents:

In pure economic terms -- I think if you buy it at ~6k and bring it back doing all the work yourself, you have a good chance of the car being worth what you paid + the cost of parts and materials.

In car idiot terms -- it sounds like a really fun medium-term project. A winter's worth of nights and weekends will result in a good driver, especially if you can live with the paint for awhile.

So, if you have the $ and time to bring it back, it sounds like a pretty good get.

Regarding the white smoke -- optimistically, that could be the rings needing to be reseated due to the long sleep. If that's the root cause then spirited driving with fresh oil should clean it up. However at that mileage, you may not be far from a top end rebuild. Have the shop do a leakdown and check for broken head studs (or check it yourself).

FYI -- I passed on an 82 coupe in similar condition only because I didn't have the time to bring it back, but my 25-year-old self would have jumped on it in about 10 seconds.

[Targalid]

For what it is worth, I bought my 76, in somewhat worse body condition than you describe, for $3500. I haven't fixed all the things that need fixing, only those that would make it drivable. For example, I fixed the rear brakes, which were also sticking due to a stuck piston. Tightened the steering, fixed major oil leaks but not all of them. It depends what you want. If you want a really nice looking car, find a 911SC that someone spent a lot of money on but can't sell for more than the going price of $12 K. You will be money ahead. On the other hand, if you like Porsche cars and enjoy driving them, get this one. You will have a lot of fun and you will learn more than you ever thought possible about mechanics. Timmy2 gave you a realistic appraisal of repair costs. I figured my 76 was worth around 6K in good shape, based on several estimates from Rennlist and watching ebay pricing, and discounted the price based on what the cost of an adequate paint job would be, namely about 2.5K. Don't be discouraged by the oil leaks. As one notable poster on this forum joked, "if it's not leaking oil, you're out!" Get a power washer or a steam cleaner and keep it handy.

[Charles Freeborn]

There are Targa people and then there are those who are not. I love mine - every thing about it.
2.7's are fine if treated with the respect due any 30+ year old engine.
-C

[ADDvanced]

[matt gineo]

I think too many people look at their 911's as an investment. I didn't have enough money to spend on a real nice $ 20,000 car. If I didn't have to put 2 kids through College I'd have enough to buy a 917. Instead I bought a decent $7,000 driver and I'm slowly fixing her up. I'm able to drive the car while I do the work and have a blast doing so. I don't think I'd get my $$$ back if I decided to sell it but I don't plan on selling the car. As I've said before, invest in municipal bonds if you're concerned about getting a decent return on your investment. I'm not saying you should buy a Piece of S*#t rust bucket and invest tens of thousands to get her on the road, just do your homework and have fun!

[CountD]

I have been reading the last page of this thread (Page 3) and there is a A LOT of positive, realistic advice here. All of these posts are really great and if pieced together offer a very realistic, fun outlook on ownership. This is the kind of thread that gets me excited about the choice I made to go with a '75 Targa. And I don't think it would be a bad purchase at $7k either.

PS. Sweet photo Cash68.

[Ryan H]

I'm sorta in the same boat. Picked up an 81 Targa with turbo body about 4 months ago for 7K. It has a bunch of miles and the interior was thrashed. I knew it was going to be a project, but I've been having a lot of fun doing a little here and a little there. I'm sure when I eventally sell it I'll get most of my money back since I have been handling all the labor. Seemed like a better idea than spending 20K on a driver and learning nothing about the car. Plus, like somebody else mentioned, I have kids

[ADDvanced]

So... I swung by Accumoto today, as I met one of their techs recently. They're a porsche/vw/audi tuning shop, that specializes in air-cooled 911s. Pretty impressive facility, some fantastic machinery, and what a great staff. Definitely have to give Chaz a shout out for being such a nice guy, Mark (owner) for showing me around the shop, some of the projects they have going on, and Doug, their 911 guru. We went over the car.. and some not so good news.

Good news is they think the chassis is great, almost no rust, and it's straight. Interior is decent, with a nice dash pad.

Bad news is everything is pretty worn. They confirmed what I was afraid of: The engine needs to come out, come ALL the way apart, and new seals everywhere. On top of that, the pushrod covers were 2 piece aftermarket items, and were gubered up pretty well with RTV, as were a lot of other places on the engine. It's like people used RTV instead of seals, which makes me question the work done internally. Is it even a 2.9 liter? Or is it just a 2.7? I was low on oil, so I added some, which turned out to be a bad move, as it leaked like a freakin sieve out of the oil level sensor.

The heat exchangers are totally shot as well. They're smashed and leaking everywhere, and covered with oil, which is why the car stinks so badly. The muffler is rotten as well, and the shifter coupling is completely worn out.

When asked about an appraisal, they said it was 5k, maybe. Tops. But realistically given the amount of work it needs, probably under that.

Also... one other weird quirk, the speedometer is hilariously optimistic. It reads about 10-15over what I'm actually traveling at all times. The odometer is also flipping over really fast, and saying I'm covering more miles than I actually am. Causes?

I'm not sure I want to dive into this or not. Hrm.

I'm on the fence. It'd take a LOT of love to get this thing to be a nice driver without smoking all over the place.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by cash68

I'm on the fence. It'd take a LOT of love to get this thing to be a nice driver without smoking all over the place.

More than love.

Money.

Unless you can get this thing for next to no money and can do the work yourself, every step, you may want to think really hard about pulling it all apart.

[kyle242gt]

Originally Posted by cash68

When asked about an appraisal, they said it was 5k, maybe. Tops.
I'm not sure I want to dive into this or not. Hrm.
I'm on the fence.

Good on you for not getting buck fever.

Let me quote myself from earlier in the thread...

Originally Posted by kyle242gt

Ask yourself if you want THIS 911 or A 911.