Engine Not starting

[pokeytom]

Swapped relays no fuel pump running or squeal after lifting plunger. Is it a noise that you are sure to hear?

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by pokeytom

Swapped relays no fuel pump running or squeal after lifting plunger. Is it a noise that you are sure to hear?

pokeytom,

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge you could use to check the fuel pressures? If you don't have one available, sit down and relax. You'll be spending too much time and effort trying to fix something you don't even know where to start. Or you could begin replacing parts after parts until you get lucky and make the engine run. I wouldn't advise it.

If you really want to get to the bottom and diagnose the culprit/s of your engine problem/s do a systematic tests and investigation. I've been looking for CIS problem that these guys could not diagnose, however, it is critical that you provide some data or information about your test results.

First stage of investigation for you to determine:
1). Is the FP running? If no, why? Do you know how to set and run the FP?
2). If the FP is able to run, why no fuel to the injectors?
3). How much is the delivery flow rate (liters/min.)?
4). Do you know how to test run the FP without running the engine?

These are just some of the basic 101 steps for checking your FP without the use of a fuel pressure gauge. If you have any question just ask. Keep us posted.

Tony

[Paulporsche]

The reason I asked where you are is that @ this time of year CIS starting problems often pop up, as fuel pressures that were off during hot months but didn't show any symptoms suddenly become problematic.

You should always check ignition first before diving into the fuel injection. Check for spark, and make sure not only your FP relay is working, but also your 25A fuse. Make sure your points are in good order and gapped correctly. Make sure your rotor and cap and ignition wires are in good shape and dry.



After that, as the previous guys have said, you have to check those fuel pressures. Often, as these cars age, and in cooler weather, the cold control pressure becomes too high, resulting in a too lean mixture. This is the function of the warmup Regulator (WUR). When this happens, the engine becomes difficult or impossible to start.

When you try raising the sensor plate while starting, do not raise it for more than about 3 seconds or so. Otherwise you could flood the engine.

I'm not sure if the others mentioned it, but you also need to verify that you have no vacuum leaks, as the FI system is dependent upon vacuum to function correctly.

[aerodyn930]

After following the good tips mentioned, If still no fuel flow , Raise the left side of the car and check for voltage at the fuel pump terminals (inside frame rail just ahead of left rear wheel) , may be a dead pump,

Good luck,, Lou

[timmy2]

Originally Posted by pokeytom

Swapped relays no fuel pump running or squeal after lifting plunger. Is it a noise that you are sure to hear?

So there is no noise at all with the ignition on and your head in the engine compartment?
Shouldn't the CDI box be making a noise in that year car?
Let's make sure you have spark...Do the ignition checks Paulporsche mentioned if you know how.
If not just ask.
Check all your fuses in your fusebox carefully for cracks or corrosion as well.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by aerodyn930

After following the good tips mentioned, If still no fuel flow , Raise the left side of the car and check for voltage at the fuel pump terminals (inside frame rail just ahead of left rear wheel) , may be a dead pump,

Good luck,, Lou

This is not applicable to this case. You are misdirecting the OP and could confuse him by such suggestion or tip. The FP for '77S is not located in the left rear of the engine bay. It is mounted some where else(?).

Tony

[aerodyn930]

I stand corrected, Somehow I was thinking it was a earlier car, 1977 fuel pump is located behind fuel tank,

Thanks for catching this mistake,

Regards,, Lou

[timmy2]

Pokeytom,
Do you have good technical reference books such as Wayne's 101 projects and a Bently manual ?
The Bently is for '78 on, but your car will be very similar. The Haynes is pretty much useless for our cars.

[pokeytom]

Originally Posted by Paulporsche

Tell us where you live. When did you last do a tuneup? Have you ever had your fuel pressures measured and your CO set by someone w/ a tester?

Thanks guys. Have had to work for the next few days and will get back soon.
Tom

[pokeytom]

Hey Guys. Whats the best way to check for spark? Also can you remove the fuel line from the fuel distribution block to check for fuelnwith the engine cranking?
Tom

[Porchcar guy]

Originally Posted by pokeytom

Swapped relays no fuel pump running or squeal after lifting plunger. Is it a noise that you are sure to hear?

Guys, Wouldn't this scenario point toward a fuel pump or FP relay issue ? To check spark easily, remove a spark plug and look for spark against a metal part while cranking. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[SchnellSchweitz]

Just a quick reminder... Ensure your spark check is nowhere near a gas line.

A spark plug tester is a safer way to go.

How to Test Your Car's Spark - YouTube

[pokeytom]

No fire. Maybe some intermittent spark. Where do I go from here? Points and rotor look good.

[Porchcar guy]

Check to see that the coil is sending correct power .....

[timmy2]

Hmmm, No spark and no fuel out of the blue... Shall we start at the beginning?
Like I said earlier you need fuel, a good spark and compression to run.

Time to clean all the fuses and fuse holders in the fusebox. May not be a cure but still good to do! Only takes an hour or so.

1. Make a list of the color or amperage of the fuses in each position.

2. Disconnect your battery negative and remove each and every fuse and then clean the fuse holder tabs with a little sandpaper or other abrasive until they are shiney where the fuse makes contact and then put a tiny dab of anti-oxidant like no-ox or battery terminal grease on them .

3. Check each fuse to make sure they are still in good condition,and put them back in or replace them. (I replaced all of mine when I bought my car)

Try to start the car when everything is clean and back together.

Report back when you're done.

[pokeytom]

Reporting Back..... Fuses cleaned and replaced where applicable and tested. Thjis was a good move as other electrical components seem to respond better. Trouble shot the the coil and no power reaching coil. Where do I go now? Thanks Tom

[timmy2]

Assuming you have an original 3 pin CDI box you will need to see where power is failing to reach the coil. Does the CDI box make a humming noise when you turn the ignition to run?
If not, check the connector at the bottom for corrosion, check the ground wire to the chassis, check the power input wire for 12 volts being supplied to the plug when ignition is on.
Some good info on what and where to check here:
3 Pin CDI box question
Maybe too much information here:
History of Bosch CDI ... toubleshooting info, parts list changes, and schematics ...

If the CDI box checks out ok:
The multi pin connector at the fuse panel (14 pin) to the motor can be a source of trouble.
Pull it and check the wiring from the coil to the connector with an ohmmeter to make sure the wires are intact. Look at the connector and make sure it is clean on both male and female ends.

The Ignition coil can fail, check the resistance between the 2 small terminals and from the center hole to each of the two small terminals.
Here is what you should see: OEM CDI coil measures 0.65 Ohms in the primary side, and 676 Ohms on the secondary side. (or close to those values)

If the CDI box is shot you can try to find a good used one, have yours repaired or go to an aftermarket unit like the MSD 6AL with a Blaster II coil.
If the coil is bad I'd go with the MSD Blaster II coil our host sells. I have one running in my car and it works great.

Are you having fun yet!?

[pokeytom]

Thanks for the great info!!!! I think I'm having fun? We will see.
Tom

[manbridge 74]

Just for reference, my 74 had an intermittent spark issue due to cracked insulation on wire from points to CDI box letting the main copper wire ground out on tiny silver metal ground wire that runs alongside/inside the factory wire. Disturbing this wire would cause my car to spark or not depending on if the two were touching.

[pokeytom]

Hey Guys, Looks like the Perma Tune is bad. Checked the middle connection from key and the power is there. No whine at Perma Tune. So what do we do now? MSD, repair existing unit, junk yard model, what do you think is the best way to go? Right now I'm not having fun, Let's hope it gets better! Thanks again fellas, if it wasn't for you guys i'd be dead in the water.