Composite Targa Top Development
 

A few of you have seen the posts in the classified section under the heading "composite roof teaser" and have asked about the possibility of targa tops.

This thread should serve as another introduction to Helion Composites and the process we will go through to bring carbon fibre and fiberglass targa tops to market.

In this thread, I will show all of the steps involved in the modeling, tooling and production of our composite targa tops and explain the processes to the best of my ability.

It is my hope that anyone interested in learning what it takes to produce quality composite body parts will glean at least a few kernels from this thread.

This thread will be updated as progress in the process is made.

The first few pictures are of the starting point.

We took an existing fiberglass top with known good fitment and stripped all of the texture coating off of the surface.

This revealed a very uneven surface that needs to be corrected. The surface will be corrected by spraying Duratec Vinyl-ester fairing primer and lots of block sanding. Once a class A surface has been obtained we will proceed to the tooling phase.

For now, enjoy the first couple of pics and feel free to ask as many questions as you like.

Thank-you,
Todd Candey
Helion Composites


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359072315.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359072345.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359072384.jpg

Looks like a good start.

Looks nice, any idea how that material stands up to UV rays? Are you considering a paintable surface?

NoYou,
the material you see here is not designed to stand up to UV, it is designed to be used as a surfacing material only.

we're still in the modeling phase.

The material we use for production is absolutely UV stable and is further finished with standard automotive paints and clears which are by nature UV stable.

NoYou, in answer to your other question, we are contemplating offering clear carbon, body color painted and black texture coated surfaces. Time will tell.

Thank you,

Todd

Looking forward to following this thread with great interest! I'll be in the market for one soon.

Sounds great! I will follow the progress.

trust me, you will all love the outcome.

Targa owner subscribe

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread!

interesting... thanks for sharing. Looking forward to the finished prod.

Todd,

Are you using a factory Targa top or aftermarket to work off of? If you use a copy of the SundialEnt sure hope that its one of the new generation as the first ones were terrible. Anything above 45 mph and the top would raise from the "A" pillar and you could stick your hand out the opening...

Glad to see you working on this. I have a factory Targa top but there are loads of guys out there who do not and want them. Also am waiting to see what you come up with for a latch as thats something that we need duplicates of even with our tops now.

Joe A

subd

I'm watching with interest.... ;-)

Joeaksa,
we're using an aftermarket top and resurfacing it to develop the outer skin and we'll most likely 3d scan a factory top underside to develop the internal structure, replacement pins, latches, etc.

The reason we're using an aftermarket top is that we can make necessary changes in terms of overall surface, rain gutters or not, how we want to incorporate seals etc., without hacking up and potentially damaging a rare, more expensive factory hard top.

Here are a few pics from yesterday.

light guide coat

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359220879.jpg

Longest sanding block we have in order to keep things level

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359220923.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359220950.jpg

Surface block sanded to reveal high and low spots. The dark spots you see in the last picture are actually low spots in the surface. Some of these patches are .050" deep, Some of the light spots are where I broke through the original gel coat.

After leveling the surface what I could, I sprayed another coat of fairing primer and will block that when I can.

I didn't bother taking a picture of that since it looks just the the blue one above ;)

--todd

Definitely watching this! Would love to have a body color hard top!

Todd,

I can take photos of my factory hard top inside if that would help. The latches are nothing like the stock Targa top latches.

Salsaman,

Several people tried to get me to keep my factory top black but nope, wanted it to match and now that it does, very happy with it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359230925.jpg

Joe A

Joe,

I would love pics.

Please send to helioncomposites@yahoo.com

From today,

the factory folding top frame shown with the important parts off to be duplicated...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359246205.jpg

Seems like it would make more sense to copy an original? Not sure how many pieces they were molded in.

group911... I want a hard top for just that. I would copy that thing like a knock-off in China, and just stamp them out for all Targa owners.

I still think there is a smoked glass two pieace answer for a new top, and if I ever get the time it will have a milled aluminum frame.....

It's too bad you weren't doing this 4 months ago when I was repairing a factory top I picked up that was broken on 2 corners. I had it completely stripped down on the inside. I could have taken pictures with dimensions for you. Good luck with your project, the Factory tops have a very unique fastening system.

I went from this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359269087.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359268330.jpg

To this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359268372.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359268407.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1359268597.jpg

Thanks for sharing Dennis,

It looks great!

Todd
I think I have a factory hard top coming in. If you want to talk about copying it, drop me an email

Dennis,

My factory hard top had some of the same damage but not as bad as yours. What happens is that the factory latches are not the best in the world and if its not really fastened correctly can come off "at speed" and thus the damage.

IMHO the fix to this is to remove the two front "pegs" that locate the top to the "A" frame and replace them with 8 mm bolts from inside the windshield frame. This way the top is not going anywhere and plus its a lot tighter.

That said, we do need to find someone to make some replacement latches for these tops...

Joe A

Contact Dan Petchel in NJ. He restores the soft tops and I know he either has a hard top or he can give you all the information to care to know about them

Vintage Porsche Parts and Targa Tops for Porsche

Joe, that looks awesome! It gives the car a different personality that is for sure!

Last time I talked/emailed with Dan he had 1 or 2 of the factory hard tops for sale. They were not cheap but try finding one elsewhere, they just do not come up for sale that often. Second is that he at that time had no spare parts for them for sale other than gaskets which are the same as for the soft Targa top. The latches are what break and thats the main thing that we need replacements for aside from the top Assy itself.

Salsaman,

It sure does and is quieter as well.

Forgot, the car does not look like that now! Last week every bit of the suspension came off and 22/30 mm Torsion bars went on along with upgraded suspension bushings and all new bearings. Car is now lowered and going in for its alignment tomorrow.

Looks much better with its better stance!

I love this thread. The idea of a drop in hard top is something I dream about.

So I gather that the latches on the factory hardtop are the weak link there.

I'm trying to decide if a simplified version of the latch mechanism for the soft top may be the solution to keep things buckled down at speed and not have to run 8mm bolts up through the outer locations in the front...

Designing and making a latch based on the soft top latches would be ideal.
You would need 2 different styles due to the roller type latches that came out in the mid 1980's.

Perhaps a bolt in design would be the easiest fo you to make as it will work on all the model years.

The Factory hard top system works great for mine as the latches are in good condition. I purchased the proper interior frame pieces for it to latch to, and it's very solid in there now.
I don't think the top ever flew off at speed. Looked more like it was dropped when removing or while in storage.
If the latches begin to get weak or look like they are going to fail, I will bolt it in as Joeaksa suggested. (I don't like the idea of bolts or wing nuts sticking out through the interior windshield frame though)

Me too, that would be nice, esp. if it used the factory latch system.

Although unfortunately the latches in the pic on p. 1 that he is working with are the earlier "hook" style, and won't work for our later "roller" latch style cars.

I also have a factory hard top and the latches are indeed completely different than the folding top latches; even using different holes in the windshield frame. I guess either method would work on a new design top, but both should be investigated to estimate the cost of duplicating. Both have somewhat complex latching mechanisms that won't be easy to dupe. Good luck, from every Targa owner!

the targa top frame picture in this thread is from an SC

I have a hardtop on my 85 and wondered if the latch ever broke if I could modify a set of jeep TJ front latches to work. It seems like it would work well but have not gone into much detailed measurements yet as my latches are in great shape. Will b efollowing this for sure.

Today's update,

we've made some progress recreating a proper rain gutter, the rain gutters on the surrogate roof really left more than a little to be desired so I decided to recreate them. These pics show the start of that, more to come as it evolves.


For those following the latch saga, I've decided to duplicate the original later OE frame and incorporate both the factory latches as well as a potential "thru-bolt" option for the earlier models.
While this is still a work in progress, my intention is to develop an internal frame that would allow multiple latching options depending on year, etc.

Stay tuned and feel free to respond with questions and comments. After all, we're in this together. ;)


Regards,

--todd


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Top
 

Wow that looks really good and it changes the whole look of the car.

Todd that rain gutter looks really good, hell of a lot better than the factory one! As far the latching system I think you are right in thinking about having several latching possibilities! Because it will make your system more desirable with anyone thinking about getting one! There will be no custom work involve that could possibly end up getting the top ruined. Good thinking!


Joeaksa: I'm sure it is really quiet, not like my soft top that is loud as it can be! :)

Todd,
I have a spare folding frame with original type hook latches that I was planning to convert into a hardtop at some point using smoked lexan sheet, but I'd much rather have a correctly contoured molded piece to attach to it. Any chance you'll be selling just molded skins for such an application, perhaps with mounting bosses/lugs molded in allowing it to be bolted or screwed to a folding frame?

Mike