I want real A/C on my 87 3.2 - please share your upgraded system installs & reviews

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

For starters, you need to ignore everything wwest says.

For any AC setup to work consistently (and that is what we all want), you need to switch to 134 and get barrier hoses. The old hoses just leak a lot, for various reasons, and as a foundational AC setup, you need to get barrier hoses. You can have them made locally somewhere, or buy them from various vendors.

Because you'll be opening up the system, you'll need a new dryer.

At that point, you'll might want to think about a new compressor and an additional condenser. Zimms, Kuehl, Griff - any one will do the trick. I think that's a solid start. If funds are a constraint (and who doesn't care about how much they spend?), I'd research Griff and kuehl, and maybe start with an incremental setup from each. But, what you don't want to do is buy a bunch of parts without thought to how they work together. So, buying a compressor from someone, then a condenser from someone else - they might not be the most efficient setup, though it may be the cheapest. Both Kuehl and Griff are awesome - from all standpoints.

But, as a minimum, you'll need 134 and barrier hoses.

Sorry, but I'm going with Kuehl on this one. Converting our cars to R-134a makes the binary pressure switch addition MANDATORY. And with the pressure switch in place my opinion is that the non-barrier hoses can be kept.

Check to make sure the fan on the front condenser works, too.

It's really hard for anyone to evaluate what your needs are, but I'd start with that. It may provide the cooling you need at HWY speeds, but it's not going to be enough for stop and go traffic on a hot and sunny day. For me, the AC setup needs to be damn good as nothing is worse than sitting in stop and go traffic with sweat dripping down your back. The system either needs to work well at all times, or not at all. That's just my personal viewpoint.

Which compressor do you have, and do you have the condenser on the rear deckled? Also, what year was your car again? If you can do the work yourself, than a grand in parts will get you pretty close to what you want, I'd think. That's what all my parts ended up costing. It was the 1700 in labor that was expensive.

While the naysayers are on the other side of the fence I still content that less than $400 can put your system in the Lexus A/C cooling class.

1.) Yes, convert to R-134a.

2.) add a trinary pressure sensing switch to the high pressure side.

3.) Use the switch to control the on/off cycling of the compressor.

4.) Mount at least 2 fans to suck airflow downward through the rear lid condensor as controlled via the pressure switch 2nd function.

5.) Use a TDR, Time Delay Relay, to allow those fans to continue to run under the control of the 2nd pressure switch function for up to 10 minutes post engine off.

6.) A reasonable, legal, tinting of the side and rear windows will always be of help.

The primary function of the pressure switch will be to prevent the compressor from "over-running" and thus over-pressurizing the system. The secondary pressure switch function will prevent the over-pressurization of the system due to latent engine heat.

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

I agree. I can monitor both, however. And in so doing, see what kind of delta I can get.

I know that the interior of the car can go from being damn hot to almost comfortable before I reach the first stoplight, so the system functions pretty well already. It doesn't take me long to turn the thing to the lowest setting, and run it that way for the rest of my trip.

I'll have to go buy a thermometer to put in the vent to test it. There seems to be enough of these posts that it would be cool (double entendre!) if we could get an idea where all the various setups stand. I'm a data nerd, so knowing what the starting interior temps is, and then the vent temps through 15 minutes would provide a nice graph from which we could extract a lot of data from. Weaker systems will have a smaller differential than more powerful systems. From there, it would be a lot easier to help people get the most of their money. Maybe some folks are ok with a bit of elevated temps at the stop lights, and just want something cooler for the highway. And others will want meat locker temps in stop and go traffic. Nothing wrong with either approach, but there will be a big difference in coin spent.

[Richard930]

I'm in the middle of installing my new Kuehl setup from Griffiths and went through the same process as you a few months ago - trying to balance what I wanted to accomplish with the costs. What I knew I didn't want to do was have to keep playing with the system, incrementally trying to get to what I wanted.

With that in mind, I figured there was little point in re-using components that were now 31+ years old. The A/C in my car hasn't worked since I bought it 12 years ago, and I suspect it stopped working long before that so why try and make this old crap work again?. So I went with all new components except the rear deck-lid condensor, including the rear fender mount condensor. For good measure, I also decided on a new Wirbelsturm evaporator motor to push more air, as well as the Kuehl fan switch and center vent replacing the bowtie. Replaced the thermostat switch as well for good measure.

At this point in the installation, I can tell you that the evaporator motor and switch upgrade alone rock! Just having a lot more volume of air moving a lot faster at you makes a nice difference. Once the A/C system is charged and working, I have absolutely no doubt that I am going to be a lot more comfortable in the car.

I've got the new evaporator (incl fan and switch), front and rear Kuehl condensors, and driver side hoses all installed. Still have to hook up the new Kuehl condensor electrics, evaporator in/out hoses and compressor, so I've probably got a couple more evenings to put into it. Then I have to wait for warmer weather to get it all charged up - and will post results if anyone cares to see them.

So, my opinion would be if you want to try and do it in stages, at least start with new basic components (evaporator, front condensor, R/D and barrier hoses at least) so you know you've got a system with integrity. Adding a kicker fan to the rear decklid condensor would probably help too. The new evap motor and switch can easily be done after you've dealt with the basic system (make sure you use screws to reassemble the evap box). If you find that it's still marginal you could then add a rear fender mounted condensor.

I figured that trying to re-use anything 30+ years old was a false economy that I would regret and pay for again at a later point anyway, so that allowed me to throw out any budgetary constraints!! I prefer driving and playing golf to being a home mechanic so I wanted to do it once and get good results I'd be happy with.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Interior temps are variable based on tinting, insulation, etc. Vent temps are what one should compare.

No. Vent temps, LOW vent temps, are really only important during initial cabin cool down periods. Once that is accomplished(assuming it can be) a vent temperature just a few degrees below your cabin atmosphere comfort level will suffice.

At least that's the way ALL modern day climate control systems operate in automatic mode, Lexus (NipponDenso), Ford, most US marques, (Denso US), and Porsche (Bosch) inclusive.

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by Richard930

I figured that trying to re-use anything 30+ years old was a false economy that I would regret and pay for again at a later point anyway, so that allowed me to throw out any budgetary constraints!! I prefer driving and playing golf to being a home mechanic so I wanted to do it once and get good results I'd be happy with.

Exactly. I mean, you're looking at a baseline - probably 6-700 bucks for a bare bones setup. But, some extra coin to do it right means years of comfortable driving without the headache of trying to fiddle with things to make it work.

[Pazuzu]

So, where does one source a binary/trinary switch? And how would one put that switch in their system (is it an inline switch, or does it break off at a connector?)

[fintstone]

WWest
Unless your car seals a lot better than mine, has tinted glass, a lot more/better insulation, more evaporator fan CFM, and an overall better sealed car...vent temps need to be quite cold and remain quite cold to keep occupants comfortable on a sunny, 100-degree day.

Just because a modern car is in an "automatic" mode does not mean the vent temps are not very cold.

Assuming a person does not build a different evaporator/fan and increase CFM to the vents, vent temp is the best measure of performance of system upgrades...as other variables remain constant other than ambient temp/humidity.

[Porchcar guy]

TO r-mm........ Guy asks a fairly simple question as a newbie and all of a sudden it is a pissing contest over kuel and wwest. Perhaps we can help this guy without all the drama !!

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Porchcar guy

TO r-mm........ Guy asks a fairly simple question as a newbie and all of a sudden it is a pissing contest over kuel and wwest. Perhaps we can help this guy without all the drama !!

Intentional or unintentional irony?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

So, where does one source a binary/trinary switch? And how would one put that switch in their system (is it an inline switch, or does it break off at a connector?)

Griff can get you fixed up.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

No. Vent temps, LOW vent temps, are really only important during initial cabin cool down periods. Once that is accomplished(assuming it can be) a vent temperature just a few degrees below your cabin atmosphere comfort level will suffice.

Wwest, without starting a pissing contest here, let's be logical because there are people reading what you post whom seem to have much different opinions and experiences in life and than what you are trying to 'project':

1) The quickest way to cool down a hot car cabin, for example the cabin of the car that has been sitting in the 95F sun for 4 hours and has reached a typical interior of 120F+, is move that 120F+ air out quickly as possible. So, if it's 95F outside and you roll down all the windows and drive away, that would replace the 120F+ air with 95F air the quickest. There is no evap fan on this earth, lol, well maybe other than the Wirbelsturm which can exchange the air so quickly.

2) Assume you have 1000 cfm of 40F air vs. 100 cfm of 32F air, which will make the cockpit more comfortably .... quicker?

Originally Posted by wwest

a vent temperature just a few degrees below your cabin atmosphere comfort level will suffice.

That will only be the case if the "heat gain" (what is being absorbed back into the cockpit by the outside ambient and radiant energy the sun is dumping through the windows and thin R value above your head) is not greater than what the ac system can remove.

Originally Posted by wwest

At least that's the way ALL modern day climate control systems operate in automatic mode, Lexus (NipponDenso), Ford, most US marques, (Denso US), and Porsche (Bosch) inclusive.

I disagree and frankly I think some 'modern day systems are a joke. My 05 Treg in automatic mode starts off with a blast, full fan speed, of what ever is in the vent system and what ever the evap core is at, and 120F+ of heat hitting is not pleasant. PS. Porsche is no longer "Bosch" inclusive for some time.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

So, where does one source a binary/trinary switch? And how would one put that switch in their system (is it an inline switch, or does it break off at a connector?)

Female Trinary Safety Switch For Electric Fans - A/C Pressure Switch

[wwest]

Originally Posted by fintstone

WWest
Unless your car seals a lot better than mine, has tinted glass, a lot more/better insulation, more evaporator fan CFM, and an overall better sealed car...vent temps need to be quite cold and remain quite cold to keep occupants comfortable on a sunny, 100-degree day.

All I can tell you about that is that my wife and I are both somewhat discomforted if I happen to leave either the RX, LS, C4, or '88 Carrera in the quick cool down mode. The '88 MUST be adjusted for low cooling once the cabin is initially cooled. Not answering to what might be required in New Orleans.

Just because a modern car is in an "automatic" mode does not mean the vent temps are not very cold.

When was the last time you rode in a modern, post 1990, vehicle with an automatic climate control system..? Every one (of the many) of my experience, once the system setpoint is reached, or even nearly so, will automatically switch to low volume outlet airflow, DASH outlet airflow, airflow temperature only low enough to maintain the cabin atmosphere at/near the setpoint. Only 4-8 degrees below my 72F setpoint in my experience, inclusive of the 2001 C4 and the '99 C2 that preceded it.

Assuming a person does not build a different evaporator/fan and increase CFM to the vents, vent temp is the best measure of performance of system upgrades...as other variables remain constant other than ambient temp/humidity.

Then why do ALL porsches of the era of concern have the control ability to RAISE the vent temperature...?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wwest, without starting a pissing contest here, let's be logical because there are people reading what you post whom seem to have much different opinions and experiences in life and than what you are trying to 'project':

1) The quickest way to cool down a hot car cabin, for example the cabin of the car that has been sitting in the 95F sun for 4 hours and has reached a typical interior of 120F+, is move that 120F+ air out quickly as possible. So, if it's 95F outside and you roll down all the windows and drive away, that would replace the 120F+ air with 95F air the quickest

I not only fully agree, that is the exact position I have taken in several past posts.

. There is no evap fan on this earth, lol, well maybe other than the Wirbelsturm which can exchange the air so quickly.

2) Assume you have 1000 cfm of 40F air vs. 100 cfm of 32F air, which will make the cockpit more comfortably .... quicker?



That will only be the case if the "heat gain" (what is being absorbed back into the cockpit by the outside ambient and radiant energy the sun is dumping through the windows and thin R value above your head) is not greater than what the ac system can remove.


I disagree and frankly I think some 'modern day systems are a joke. My 05 Treg in automatic mode starts off with a blast, full fan speed, of what ever is in the vent system and what ever the evap core is at, and 120F+ of heat hitting is not pleasant. PS. Porsche is no longer "Bosch" inclusive for some time.

...

[wrinkledpants]

You're missing the point. If your car can't make cold air, then it's not a powerful system. If you want to measure an AC system's ability to make cold air, you measure the vent temp. After the car has cooled, it's up to you to make yourself comfortable - either by reducing the fan speed and keeping a cold temp, or raising the fan speed and going with a warmer temp.

If you have a giant fan pushing cool air, sure you could achieve the same results as cold air moving slower. But, we're all working with the same fan - so it's not a factor. Vent temp is going to determine whether you have a strong AC system or not.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by wwest

...When was the last time you rode in a modern, post 1990, vehicle with an automatic climate control system?...

I own 2 Lexus, a Cayenne, and a Toyota 4-Runner...all post 1990. When was the last time you posted without a backhanded insult?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by fintstone

When was the last time you posted without a backhanded insult?

*snort*

[fintstone]

From another thread...this is what you are looking for:

Originally Posted by Jim Sims

Finished up an A/C project today; installed a complete A/C system into a black on black '74 Targa (never had air). Put many aftermarket items from several vendors into the system (Griffiths, Rennaire and Performance Aire). Restored a factory under-dash duct and restored/upgraded a factory evaporator/blower and used the better factory steel compressor mounting bracket. System has 43 ft of reduced barrier hose, 14 reduced barrier hose fittings, a Sanden compressor, five heat exchange devices (three condensers, one evaporator, and one subcooler- Procooler), three fans, two relays, a fuse and a circuit breaker plus a high/low pressure safety switch and 1 kg of R-134a refrigerant with polyester oil. Total system weight is a little over 70lbs. Car has a Supertec 3.0 l and a Carrera oil cooler. In 95F ambient air temp with full sun (over 300 shortwave insolation) system produces copious amounts of 40F air at high blower setting and a steady flow of 32F air at medium blower setting. I found all of the above mentioned 911 AC aftermarket vendors helpful and selling products with good value.

[wrinkledpants]

This is what I'd love to see wwest post, but it seems it's either far too complicated, or far too embarrassing for him to do.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

You're missing the point. If your car can't make cold air, then it's not a powerful system. If you want to measure an AC system's ability to make cold air, you measure the vent temp.

I haven't said that vent temps aren't important, just that the importance is really only during initial cabin cooldown. Once that task is acccomplished, hopefully quite quickly accomplished, most of us will begin moderating the vent temps and/or the blower speed. Since, as I have stated, the initial cooldown period is short enough for wife and I, we have had no reason to check actual vent temps.

After the car has cooled, it's up to you to make yourself comfortable - either by reducing the fan speed and keeping a cold temp, or raising the fan speed and going with a warmer temp.

Or lowering both the airflow volume and the vent temperature.

If you have a giant fan pushing cool air, sure you could achieve the same results as cold air moving slower. But, we're all working with the same fan - so it's not a factor. Vent temp is going to determine whether you have a strong AC system or not.

I feel that I should bring up the point that vent temp is not really as important as the maximum delta, inlet air temp vs outlet air temp, that can be attained for a given system working with a specific air volume.