Any Toluene veterans out there?

[Jack Olsen]

All right, my chip is optimized for 93-94 octane gas. I can't get better than 91 out here in California. Race gas is about eight miles away, and pricey as all get-out.

So, I'm currently checking with a couple of local chemical suppliers about getting Toluene, 55 gals at a time. 1-2 gallons per tankful should bring my octane level up, without costing me an arm and a leg.

But will it kill me? I know it's not a particularly hazardous chemical (it's a component of many pump gas blends), but is there anything I should know that my search of previous posts hasn't turned up?

Toluene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane

Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.

[nostatic]

I've used Toluene in the lab off and on since 1985. I've gotten it on my hands many times (along with lots of other solvents..such is organic synthesis), and as organics go it isn't *too* toxic. You are better off using gloves though and not hoofing the fumes. I still occasionally use it to remove dried glue or tar.

Of course I may die of cancer any day now

[Mike the mechanic]

Sorry to post another question in your post, but, I have been trying to loate toluene locally for a long time now, with no luck. Who sells it??? I guess I will have to buy it over the border, (40 mins away) if they let me pass it through...
Thanks

Mike
86 Carrera tt

[Emission]

I've been running 'TRICK' octane boost in my 930 for about two months now (it was pinging on the 91 stuff too). Two cans per tank raise octane to about 93 and the car runs like a champ. No more pinging, even on hot days under load.

I buy it by the case and it works out to about $4.50 or so per can (individually, they are nearly $9 each). Doing the math, it works out to about $.40 per treated gallon (22 gallon tank).

$1.80 - 91 Pump gas
$.40 - Fuel additive (per treated gallon)
----------
$2.20 for 93 octane

Not bad!

I am in LA too. E-mail me and I will give you the contact info for my source.

- Mike

[Jack Olsen]

Mike, are you sure that it's raising the octane 10 full points per can? According to the Toluene article I posted a link to, over-the-counter octane boosters 'points' are a tenth of a full octane unit. In other words, a one 'point' increase only brings you from 91 to 91.1.

That's why I started looking into bulk Toluene.

When I get a source, I'll post it.

[RoninLB]

....haven't bought toluene in awhile..I use it to cut fiberglass resin..it doesn't vaporize as fast as acetone..good for cleaning paint spray guns when using urethane paints..I keep a little of it in spray guns when they aren't being used to keep seals from drying out..I usually buy 5 gal cans from marine supply..I consider it as brain damage waiting to happen, non pro speaking.........Ron

[ChrisBennet]

I mentioned using Toluene ("rocket fuel") to Steve Weiner a while back and this was what he told me:

I might add that unless you can thoroughly mix Toluene with
the gas outside the car, that is not very consistent, BTDT
over the past 30+ years and its an iffy proposition. The other
issue is that Toluene attacks and dissolves all non-viton
rubber parts in the fuel system so Caveat Emptor on that. It
ain't pretty.

-Chris

[ebrownson]

Jack:

Here is a link to an EPA site that describes toluene.

http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/chemfact/f_toluen.txt

It is not very toxic but it isn't laughing gas either. Dispense it with a proper pump and in a well ventilated area. Use chemical proof gloves. DO not use latex gloves. I would suggest using an organic chemical respirator and making sure the drum is grounded to prevent static sparks.

Hope this helps.


Eric
83SC

[RarlyL8]

Jack - I work with toluene on a daily basis in the coatings industry. You need to give it the same respect that you would gasoline, but that's about it. Rubber gloves are fine for short term handling, most folks don't use gloves at all. I wouldn't take a bath in it, just use common sense.

You're right about the mixing ratios. Toluene alone has an octane rating of ~114 so you need significant amounts to raise the 91 in your tank to 93 or so. The cans sold at part stores as "octane booster" are a rip-off at best.

Optimally you would have a 5-10 gallon can you could mix fuel in before putting it in your tank. That way you know it is blended properly. Toluene is hard on rubber fuel components. I don't know how your system is set up, but you can test the different blends by chronically soaking O-rings or rubber lines in it (purchase examples of the ones you have and soak them in a sealed container for a few weeks).

I have never used toluene on an ongoing basis in a street car. The best source for longevity information might be drag racers or folks with blown hotrods.

[Emission]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
Mike, are you sure that it's raising the octane 10 full points per can?

Without chemical analysis... I am not sure about anything that goes in my tank!

All I know is that someone on this board, or on www.911turbo.com, suggested I give it a try when I mentioned my predetonation.

I called TRICK and they said the octane would go to 93 or so in a 22 gallon tank if I added two cans.

Give them a call, here is there number:

TRICK Enterprises
800-444-1449

I looked into toluene also, but I would have had to add a few gallons to each tank. It would be a pain in the tail, and my wife doesn't want drums of toluene at the house!

[Superman]

The stuff that's already in your gasoline is worse than the toluene. I always wear nitrile gloves when working with solvents, but I am much more comfortable working with toluene than with gasoline. Gasoline is pretty much last choice for me. I'd sooner work with MEK. Gasoline is nasty stuff. I consider it worse than probably ANY of the stuff on the shelves at the auto paint store. Toluene? Go for it. Just don't get any gasoline on you.

[RSupdate]

Jack,

Great thread, I am in the same boat as you, being that my chip is mapped for usage of 93 octane - minimum.

I 've tried several of the "octane boosters" off the shelf and am not real impressed as they have made my 3.2 run weird at times.

"iffy" performance gains at best IMHO

Since my 911 is not a daily driver I just bight the bullet and do the Unocal 100 octane//91 octane mix. I do approx 6 gal of 100 to 10 gal of the 91 for a octane rating of 94.4 (per the unocal website tables)

On the subject of obtaining bulk Tolulene, I would be a bit skittish about having a 55 gal drum of the stuff on my property, but that's just me, having kids around etc..

I'd love to hear how Black Beauty runs with a tankful, and your personal impessions !!!

[Teutonics]

Here's a site that has LOTS of info on toluene:

http://www.geocities.com/pichound2000/toluene.html

HTH

[campbellcj]

Union 76 100 octane is available at the pump around here for $4.25/gal

Not exactly cheap, but hopefully it's a "genuine" 100oct.

[Wayne 962]

I dated someone who lived in upstate NY. They had their own gas tank on the property (for tractors and cars, etc.) and had gas delivered there...

Perhaps an option? Probably not in LA though...

-Wayne

[Early_S_Man]

Jack,

A 55 galon drum on rollers and permanently-attached hand pump and nozzle seems like a pretty good idea! I doubt that your exposure would be as great as if a funnel and one-gallon can was used! It probably isn't as toxic as the fumes at the local gas pump and certainly not as bad as the MTBE you had to breathe for how many years???

[Natchamp]

Interesting topic that seems to pop up every so often. Here is another thread that has some instersting info and links. Personaly, I have used the stuff and feel its worth doing "if" you have an engine configuration that can take advantage of higher octane. Higher octane in itself will not get you anything. Also, you need to make sure you add some type of lubricant to it. Most people use a marvel mystery oil.

Octane Boosting

[Jack Olsen]

My assumption was that the lubricant would be needed if you were trying to make your own 100-octane racing fuel. A gallon and a half in a 19-gallon tank, producing roughly 93 octane, didn't seem to merit the addition of a lubricant or a detergent. Am I wrong?

[Lindy]

Jack,

This is probably getting "way out there" , but another (possible) option is Triptane, which has been used in unlimited air racing to achieve very high research octane ratings of over 140. It will increase the octane rating significantly (per volume added to fuel), however it may be difficult to obtain in the LA area as an additive.

[TimT]

Marvel mystery oil, gotta love the stuff!!!!