Need Your Input Regarding Thoughts and Future Plans for This BBS!

[JBunkley]

Dear Wayne,

I believe that this BBS has value. I would probably never buy my dream without it. The invaluable resource of people and support is a great asset. I would never have the balls to buy an early 911, take it apart, and then REBUILD it without the father figure of experienced people at such easy access.

What this means is; you are providing me with resources, I in turn want you to continue to provide those resources so I support your business with purchases from your catalog.

In addition, I can't wait for the book.

-JB

[nostatic]

I've surfed a few of the BWM boards, and found them all lacking. It seems as though there was lots of turnover, and the level of knowledge seemed limited to a few people, and the pool never seemed to grow. Here, there are a few true p-car geniuses, but as they have contributed, more and more people have become increasing proficient...the community of experts gets bigger.

There is a passion on the BWM boards, but it is different. While there may be many more BMWs on the road, I think the number of true enthusiasts that make a community like this is probably about equal. Maybe a dynamic site like this could build the passion of the BMW crowd...but maybe not.

Bottom line, I wouldn't pay very much at all unless you really think the community has anything going.

[umnitza]

I'm going to chime in.
I'm a "noob" to this board - mostly because I came across it at the recommendation of one of the members here who is also a member of "my" board.

I'm a "super moderator" there, which basically means, I have no rights, but can do some things

Currently, in the Porsche world, there are two well-known boards that *I* know of - this one and Rennlist. In the BMW world, there are about 8. All have their little niche focus.

One board attracts that non-owner, asthetic interested, pseudo-knowledgable, while the other attracts the well-traveled, expert, etc.

Bimmer.org...who knows who they attract

All your points are on the mark about what really makes a board worth coming back to:
People, advice, interest.

I'd like to think that our board (having BARELY seen this one) is akin to the most technically minded board you'll ever run across for BMW's. We have the likes of Jim Conforti stopping by for visits, BMW mechanics, Forced Induction experts, guys who've taken the pain to machine new pistons, etc.

For those interested - www.bimmerforums.com

[CamB]

"I'm not too interested in Roadfly.org (bimmer.org). Their interface is awful, which means that they just don't get it in my opinion... "

Yeah, the interface is awful. In fact, it is worse!! Hurry up and convince them to be accumulated by Wayne's Empire and give me a proper interface!!

You could probably get www.bmw2002faq.com for nothing - the dude appears to be constantly on the edge of his finances.

Trying to be constructive, you need to think carefully about how you will retain the BBSers of whatever you are interested in.. you wouldn't want to pay over $$$ and see them disaffected and disappearing.

[Wayne 962]

Ahh, the spies are among us!

Really guys, this is exactly the kind of thoughts and insight that I was looking for!

Now, anyone want to finish this pain-in-the-butt book for me?

-Wayne

[Jack Olsen]

Hey, Umnitza's bimmerforums.com BBS is pretty good.

[Teutonics]

Having been a BMW owner and DIY'er for many years (and just a newbie Porsche owner), I've participated in the BMW forums for a long time. I would caution that the bimmer crowd is very different from the Porsche enthusiast group: very fragmented. Unlike Porsches, which basically was the same car for 20+ years, the BMW crowd is fragmented into the '02 group, the e21 group, the e30 group, e36 group, e46 group, etc..... and that's just the 3-series line! Each group is independent and there's not much crossover, mainly because there's very little (or no) crossover in parts or commonalities between models. Likewise, there is a lot of fragmentation in forum participation and support.

It would be very difficult to "capture" the bimmer group by purcasing or partnering with just one forum.

One other note: the format doesn't make the forum, it's the content provided by the supporters that makes the forum great... like this one!

Just my "other side of the fence" perspective.

[cstreit]

Wayne,

I'm going to chime in here only because I want to echo the sentiments of some of the other folks with the intent to help solidify what they've said to you...

THe BBS is a great asset, but there are very few models (outside of on-line sales) that generate any tangible revenue. Despite modern accounting practices of quantifying "Intangible Customer Goodwill" on many corporate balance sheets, it's really tough...

I work for a CRM/Supply Chain/Financial optimization company so we deal with a lot of revenue issues... Most companies internet sales are 5-10% of their total revenue. Significant, but not great. Bottom line is I would determine offering price based on what you think your intended revenue is in year 1 and 2 (understanding that it could drop off afer six months), take a SMALL percentage of that, adjust it for how many people you think you will get from said purchased customer list, and offer what you think is fair...

I wouldn't say it would be worth spending more than 15-20K onyl because all the risk is yours, including the risk of the seller re-starting another board... All you're really buying is the contact list and the URL name.

I think it's a GREAT idea FWIW, but I also think you have the resources to start a good board from scratch too. Try some creative promotions. For example... FOr every new customer a board member brings in, give them 5% of that new customers order off their next order. (Up to a max $ value or something).

Without knowing your ratio of repeat customer income vs. one-time buys, this may or may not work...

Can you host some famous people on on-line chats?

My 2 cents...

[jluetjen]

Wayne;
Given your MIT background and the things that you've written, you're most likely familiar with "Gaming Theory". "GT" would suggest that while there is some abstract "correct" value for everything, it really doesn't matter as much as the game/negotiation. The objective is to maximize your own value - which often entails maximizing the value for the other player(s). So what am I getting at with this mumbo-jumbo????

1) Make a couple of models of the economics of running a BBS. As people mention, the finances seem to be pretty grim the more successful they get. Once you have 2 or 3 validated models, you will most likely have a pretty good idea what the ball park is. Put these aside.

2) Figure out how much a BMW BBS would be valuable to you (NPV of the cash values is the industry standard). As mentioned earlier, this could assume a certain amount of purchase activity based on the BBS activity. Since you don't have any direct IT links between your BBS and your business, you might just want to consider a quick coorelation analysis between BBS activity and Pelican's revenues. A richer picture could be derived by considering each of the different Porsche forums (Aircooled verus watercooled for instance) separately versus the related revenue stream at Pelican.

Those two points will pretty much define the two extremes of the negotiation. Then the game is one to try to maximise the difference between the actual purchase price and your perceived value. This can be done by either haggling down the purchase price or taking some of the purchase price out of cash and into some other commodity which the seller values more then you do. The other option is to increase your value by developing ways to make more money from the BBS - but you were going to do this anyhow.

So there is my not so short $0.02 (as always). Good luck!

PS: Why don't you have sales for BBS members? For example - after 100 or 1000 posts, a X% certificate to Pelican if the user registers their email address and BBS user name in Pelican's customer database? Or how about a frequent Pelican status after spending $Y and registering on the BBS?

[roGERK]

OK Wayne,

Free advice, worth every penny:

1) What's a BBS worth? No idea, but in my experience of car clubs (specifically their magazine editors) after 1-3 years most people are hacked off with doing something that takes enormous amounts of time and effort, and frequently gets little or no praise and is taken for granted...

So, what am I trying to say? Do your research, put out a few gentle feelers, and see if someone who has set up or "owns" a BMW site is getting fed up with it and fancies taking a break. You may find their site is much cheaper than someone who really loves doing it, or has only recently started.

2) An observation on human nature - People are very conservative (with a small c). The chances are I'll continue using the Pelican BBS for as long as it continues. I don't give a hoot about another site which has a better layout, or offers me a $1 discount on my next $50 worth of parts.

So, what am I trying to say? I doubt if you being a new "owner" of a BBS would cause a mass evacuation of members. BUT, because people hate and loath change, I'd keep it more or less exactly as it is, even if it looks and "feels" nothing like this BBS.

3) Be careful. A big killer of businesses in a recession is attempting to expand (remember the Hermit crab, and how vulnerable it is when it moves between shells!).

So, I'd say - are you sure this BMW thing is going to fly? Otherwise you'll be wasting time, effort and money trying to launch something that's time isn't right while simultanously taking time effort and money away from your core business - selling parts for Porkers...

Good luck to you. whatever you decide.

- roGER

[barlowdo]

Wayne, I like your analogy:

It's like pulling someone over on the road, and asking them to sell their Porsche, which they have 1000 hours and 1000s of dollars invested (but is only worth market value).

-Don

[john walker's workshop]

being that the bmw guys tend to work in groups, (2002, m3, etc), just set it up like the pelican system. you just click on the group you want to be in. (911, 914, etc). are there any already done that way?
just remember, a step up can be a step out.

[scca_ita]

I think we need a feed back forum for buyers and sellers.

My last buying transaction on this sight will have to be concluded in small claims court.

I think the majority of the sellers on Pelican are world class, however there would be value in exposing the ones who choose to be dishonest.

[umnitza]

Thanks for the thumbs up on bimmerforums.

Quite coincidentally our model is very much like the one I'm hearing this board as having.

I agree that there is significant fragmentation in the model range on BMW's boards, but to be perfectly honest, MANY parts are transferrable between models - within reasonable distances of years. 2002 parts ARE NOT going to be similar to E30 or E36 parts, BUT, E46 parts CAN be transferred to E36, E65 parts CAN be tranferred to E38 parts, etc.

What is ALWAYS transferrable is intelligent research, mechanical advice, and "community" between ALL the bmw model ranges. That's what we're striving to do here.

BF.C (our shorthand naming) is determined to be the PREMIERE board, but SLOWLY and effectively.

Along with myself (1998 ///M3/4 E36 & E38 740i), our Admins have modified (not just aesthetically, but SC, Pistons, Turbo, wheels, suspensions, lighting, you name it) cars that allow us to be effective in our responses.

Wayne, I will respond to you privately on the other stuff

I think the member that got me here was JOHNPAUL but we also have another one, Stuttgart951, that has mentioned this place before

BTW - we have great admiration for Porsches, anyone browsing our board will be happy to know that

[Sean Hamilton]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Hmm, there are a bunch of DIY people on the BMW circuit. Also, there are millions more cars than Porsches, so even if the percentage is lower, then the actual numbers may be there.

Am I a typical yard stick to measure by?
In this order of priority:-
1. First, I am a Porsche enthusiast - passionate.
2. I came searching for like minded - so I could learn more.
3. I liked the interface - "I" can see that you acknowledge my participation.
4. I discovered it was linked to parts purchase - convenient, competitive.
5. Expert advise - from the BBS owner himself and others.
6. Great personalities and characters - often entertaining.
7. Good meeting place - I've made friends, local and afar.
All of these keep me coming back.
1, 2, and 5(if I had to narrow it down) being the most essential.

BUT, ya gotta eat and if I'm not converted into a "paying" customer (4.) then is a BBS worth anything more than a warm fuzzy feeling? Despite the number of participants.

[Steve Marshall]

I would look at it a couple of ways;

What will it cost you to duplicate the site you are evaluating for purchase?

What type of premium do you place on having it now vs. later?

Are there other viable bidders interested in such a site?

It is conceivable that the price you place on such a site IS the market.

I think it's a great idea. I also think you should not be shy about marketing directly to people that subscribe to your BBS. As I far as I can tell you are not currently doing this. If you are worried about the issue of spam, don't be. Participants in your BBS all have a common interest and are already purchasing what you specialize in. Push marketing for your type business is totally acceptable to most of the clientele you serve and is not confused with the countless irrelevant spam email we are bombarded with daily. That is as long as you don't get out of hand, which I don't see happening because of you conservative approach thus far. Once every couple of weeks wouldn't bother me at all.

Good luck with with your decision.

[Wayne 962]

I'm not interested in spamming people. To be honest, our Porsche sales are one thing that has kept our BMW site on the back burner. Sales increases year-over-year have been in the triple digits for the past 4 years (we started five years ago). If it ain't broke...

Consequently, this weekend was another record for on-line orders! (thanks everyone). This beats our previous record (from two weeks ago)...

If anyone ever wondered why the engine book is taking so long, it's because things like these (that pay the bills) kindof get in the way.

Your input here is 100% great feedback.

The big question is "how easy would it be to create and build our own forum, and how quickly could that be done?" It takes time to create these things. I have no question at all that we can create a viable, interactive forum, but it will take the right mix and a bunch of time. I've got feelers out to a bunch of people running BMW forums - I'll have to see if they bite.

-Wayne

[LeRoux Strydom]

Hi Wayne

My $0.02 worth on the topic:
I would not even begin to value a BBS apart from basing it on future value of expected revenue streams.

My main comment comes from being both a (long-time) BMW owner and a (newbie) Porsche owner, and the differences that I can perceive in the use/maintenance of these cars. I have owned or currently own an E30, 2x E36 and E39 BMW's. Most of these started out new, and had warranties or maintenance plans taking care of servicing needs for extended distances (up to 100000 km or 60000 miles for the metrically challenged). BTW, it is being said that the US is metricing inch by inch. It was therefore never required of me to actually get my hands dirty with these cars, apart from compulsive oil level checks, tyre pressures and such complicated tasks. One exception was the E30 325i, that I bought used without a maintenance plan. I am therefore of the opinion that the majority of BMW BBS visitors with new model cars do so for technical advice to evaluate or diagnose some issues, but would leave the maintenance or repairs to the agents since these would mostly be covered by the maintenance plan or warranty. So I would guess that the only real business opportunity (parts sales) would lie with the owners of older models who would do their own repairs or modify them for track use, and there may well be a fair number of them. The correllation with the Porsche BBS will be if you can distinguish BBS visitors and/or parts sales between older 911/944/928 owners and 993/996 owners?

So you can understand why I had to get a car that I can actually tinker with, and I am having great fun learning with my SC!

I wish you good luck with thinking about these issues before offering someone cold hard cash for his BBS, and I look forward to the 101 projects book for the E36!

LeRoux