Non-working AC thread #3141592

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

All of us who have actually read what he has written over the years. He has "internet expert" written all over him.

At first, I thought he was a clever troll, but then found out he actually believes the fertilizer he's shoveling. Which makes it even more sad. Well, that and the weird conditions he sets up for what constitutes a functional aircooled AC system.

Change the interior color???

I don't think that I have ever made that suggestion.... maybe if someone was already seriously considering...???

On the other hand if you live in Phoenix, Tucson, or the like and you're shopping for an air-cooled 911 I would suggest assigning interior low value ratings to dark interiors vs lighter colors.

Tint the windows???

Since you live in eastern WA this might be a subject you do not entirely grasp. Visit Tucson or Phoenix and note how many UPSCALE cars have tint "beyond the pale" (illegal), inclusive of ALL 911's. Most potential 911 buyers in such regions would assign a higher value to cars already tinted.

Plus, should it be an issue it can easily be removed.

75 degrees is plenty cool enough??? Seriously?

First, I would have been addressing overall/average cabin air temperature, not simply vent outflow temperature.

How many of us with home A/C are using a setting below 75F, or even 78F..??

That being said, automotive A/C is an animal of an entirely different color. One, we cannot simply move away from direct sunlight.. there's that TINT issue again..!!

Even in my '95 LS400, 2001 AWD RX300, or my 2001 996 C4, I find that I must uniquely address the automatic climate control setting depending on conditions. Startup either car after setting out in bright sunlight for an hour or more, I immediately change the setting to maximum cooling and FRESH inlet airflow, lower the rear windows slightly in the LS. Once the cabin's HOT atmosphere is purged I switch to recirculate. As the cabin surrounding cools I lower the blower speed to medium, and then as the vent outflow becomes discomfortingly cool (most times my wife's "call")I raise the setpoint to the 72-75F range.


If you take the money you spend changing the interior color

Let's ignore this as no one has ever made this suggestion.

and tinting the windows, <$200! you can buy a whole pile of stuff from Griff, a nice vacuum pump, and a set of gauges.

The most reasonable item you can buy from Griffiths is the PWM evaporator blower motor PWM control, and that alone will bust your ~$200 budget...some item on Ebay, <$25...

And do better than 75 degrees, LOL.

Again, for the clear majority of owners, 75F would be perfectly suitable.

And not ruin the value of your classic sports car by pimpin' it

I suspect most owners who have tinted the windows consider it as perfectly PRACTICAL, NOT "pimp'n"

Are or you looking down on a segment of the population in your area..??? You are, you know, bordering right on he edge of redneck/skinhead country.

and changing the color of the interior from the one on the sticker.

Yet again, I don't believe I have made such a suggestion, other that maybe as an answer to a specific, unique, question or circumstance.

In addition, the fact that you would have a working AC system means that the value of your car goes UP, because now you could sell to a wider market.

My point, EXACTLY...

The question becomes, remains, how much money, DIY effort, must be spent getting there.

By my estimate, buying stuff from Griff could return 70 cents on the dollar, which is a heck of a lot better than just about any other modification you can do.

"...75F would be perfectly suitable..."

Provided the factory A/C system could get "there", but alas, it cannot, not even with Griffiths FULL aftermarket A/C enhancement product set. The best we can hope for is to get enough cooling airflow from the vents as to have localized, regional comfort.

Or is Griffith now offering a window tint kit to overcome the greenhouse glass sunlight radiant heating effects??

The human comfort equation is not just about local OAT.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

"...75F would be perfectly suitable..."

Provided the factory A/C system could get "there", but alas, it cannot, not even with Griffiths FULL aftermarket A/C enhancement product set. The best we can hope for is to get enough cooling airflow from the vents as to have localized, regional comfort.

Or is Griffith now offering a window tint kit to overcome the greenhouse glass sunlight radiant heating effects??

The human comfort equation is not just about local OAT.

ll

Willy, I'm about tired now of your mouth.
Do you have a good health insurance policy?

[speednme1]

Originally Posted by wwest

"...75F would be perfectly suitable..."

Provided the factory A/C system could get "there", but alas, it cannot, not even with Griffiths FULL aftermarket A/C enhancement product set. The best we can hope for is to get enough cooling airflow from the vents as to have localized, regional comfort.

Or is Griffith now offering a window tint kit to overcome the greenhouse glass sunlight radiant heating effects??

The human comfort equation is not just about local OAT.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I have the Griffths ac system in my 930..and damn is she comfortable while driving. I use it in the medium mode as it gets too cold on the high...his full system works...period. Unless you have previously installed Charlie's system in your car and have sweated your family jewels off, I don't see the point in stating that Griffth's system will not work as stated.

fyi I went with the full boat minus the rear condenser....try it you might like it..

[Pato911]

How about an answer to my question instead of sniping? Please.

I do not think I pulled a good vacuum before and surely didn't charge properly. So, I have now evacuated the system, vacuumed and am ready for a recharge. What should I target? Let's assume 85-90F ambient (60+% humidity if it matters).

:P

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by Pato911

How about an answer to my question instead of sniping? Please.

I do not think I pulled a good vacuum before and surely didn't charge properly. So, I have now evacuated the system, vacuumed and am ready for a recharge. What should I target? Let's assume 85-90F ambient (60+% humidity if it matters).

:P

I would attempt to get pressures close to 30 low side and 210 high side. On a 98 degree day, I charged to those exact pressures and had vent temps of 29 degrees at an idle of 1000RPM (fan speed on max). The car was extremely cold inside, and is also extremely cold in blazing sun, highway use, and puttering around in traffic.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by kuehl

ll

Willy, I'm about tired now of your mouth.

Griff, you and me both. I'm not sure if I've ever come in contact with someone who has so little real world experience with a subject but comments as if he is God's gift to it (and keeps his lines of nonsense going year after year). I guess doing that is some kind of lame cry for help?

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by wwest;8231875"

...75F would be perfectly suitable..."

Provided the factory A/C system could get "there", but alas, it cannot, not even with Griffiths FULL aftermarket A/C enhancement product set. The best we can hope for is to get enough cooling airflow from the vents as to have localized, regional comfort.

Or is Griffith now offering a window tint kit to overcome the greenhouse glass sunlight radiant heating effects??

The human comfort equation is not just about local OAT.

wwest, I know I said I was no longer going to engage you in a/c threads, due to the futility of it, but the above is so wrong, than it can not go uncorrected. The 911 a/c system, when equipped with quality modifications (Griffith's and other alternatives), can make the interior of the car a rolling icebox even in mid 90s temperatures (above that, it is no longer an icebox, but still very comfortable). Your "can't achieve 75" is ridiculous. And yes, I am referring to more than just the air directly in front of the dash registers.

[wwest]

The point I was trying to make is that you can get the cabin atmosphere as cool as you like, but you're still subject to the sun's radiant HEAT, even sunburn, absent adding good window tint. And it isn't just you that's adversely affected by the suns heating rays, HEAT your interior surround and now add that to your comfort equation.

Notice how everyone here uses vent temperature as a comfort reference..... that's pure BS.

The focus should be in the cabin's overall temperature, inclusive of MRT.

So yes, the Griffiths system, fully implemented, can deliver TONS of cooling airflow. And if the constant flow of DRY, cooling airflow to your face and upper body makes you comfortable, fine.

Meanwhile I'll go for more of an overall method of addressing the human comfort equation, cabin atmosphere temperature AND MRT.

[wwest]

Think about this: Once the cabin atmosphere's temperature reaches, or declines to nearby your, and your wife's, passenger's, etc, comfort level, wouldn't it be nice to reverse the airflow, outflow from both the footwell areas, no more seriously discomforting DRY, CHILLING airflow to the face and upper body.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

wwest, I know I said I was no longer going to engage you in a/c threads, due to the futility of it, but the above is so wrong, than it can not go uncorrected. The 911 a/c system, when equipped with quality modifications (Griffith's and other alternatives), can make the interior of the car a rolling icebox even in mid 90s temperatures (above that, it is no longer an icebox, but still very comfortable). Your "can't achieve 75" is ridiculous. And yes, I am referring to more than just the air directly in front of the dash registers.

"..rolling ice box.." Excellent statement, but that only applies to your body locally, you must sit there being DISCOMFORTED by CHILLING airflow in order to overcome, as if you actually can, the lack of more proper address, FULL address, of the human comfort equation.

What would it be like if that CHILLING airflow were routed out through the footwell vents? You could even, if need be, turn up the cooling level enough to address the overall cabin comfort level and still not be discomforted.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

I would attempt to get pressures close to 30 low side and 210 high side. On a 98 degree day, I charged to those exact pressures and had vent temps of 29 degrees at an idle of 1000RPM (fan speed on max). The car was extremely cold inside, and is also extremely cold in blazing sun, highway use, and puttering around in traffic.

Why extremely cold, that's doesn't fit anyone's idea of "comfort"..?

Or do you mean you must keep the system outflow at a seriously discomforting level, CHILLING level, in order to keep the cabin's average temperature in a reasonable comfort zone?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

ll

Willy, I'm about tired now of your mouth.
Do you have a good health insurance policy?

Have you actually read and comprehend my position?

I was not denigrating your system, only that it fails to address the elephant the room, MRT, Mean Radiant Temperature, the adverse effects of sunlight through the glass.


PS: IMO you would do well by recommending window tint as a way to address MRT, a reasonable adjunct to your product set.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

wwest, I know I said I was no longer going to engage you in a/c threads, due to the futility of it, but the above is so wrong, than it can not go uncorrected. The 911 a/c system, when equipped with quality modifications (Griffith's and other alternatives), can make the interior of the car a rolling icebox even in mid 90s temperatures (above that, it is no longer an icebox, but still very comfortable). Your "can't achieve 75" is ridiculous. And yes, I am referring to more than just the air directly in front of the dash registers.

I have given up on him as well. I know my Griffith's system kept my wife and I comfortable in 100+ heat while driving right back into the sun. The steering wheel was HOT on the top and the dash was too hot to hold your hand on. It is illegal to add tinting to the windshield in Oklahoma and I suspect every state.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I have given up on him as well. I know my Griffith's system kept my wife and I comfortable in 100+ heat while driving right back into the sun. The steering wheel was HOT on the top and the dash was too hot to hold your hand on. It is illegal to add tinting to the windshield in Oklahoma and I suspect every state.

Wasn't really suggesting windshield tint/film but.....

Crystalline Automotive Films - Clear automotive window film for cars, trucks - Crystalline - 3M US

Looks as if it could even be applied to windows without changing appearance.....value.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by kuehl

ll

Willy, I'm about tired now of your mouth.
Do you have a good health insurance policy?

The poor guy is full of crap. All the way to the top. My stock system (front condenser, evap, evap blower, and hoses all from GTI excepted) cools the cabin down very nicely in 100+ degree weather. Running 134a.

Well, he's either full of crap, or a liar. At other times, he has said he doesn't question that your stuff works, but then says crap like the above.

In any case, It doesn't take that long to get the cabin comfortable. And in some cases, I have to dial the AC back, if I'm not wearing slacks and a tie. The stock(ish) system has plenty of condensing capacity for dry desert 100-degree days.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

The poor guy is full of crap. All the way to the top. My stock system (front condenser, evap, evap blower, and hoses all from GTI excepted) cools the cabin down very nicely in 100+ degree weather. Running 134a.

Well, he's either full of crap, or a liar. At other times, he has said he doesn't question that your stuff works, but then says crap like the above.

In any case, It doesn't take that long to get the cabin comfortable. And in some cases, I have to dial the AC back, if I'm not wearing slacks and a tie. The stock(ish) system has plenty of condensing capacity for dry desert 100-degree days.

Again, as good as Griffith's products are, they do not address the MRT factor, our "greenhouse glass". Even 68F will not be comfortable if the sun is blazing down on you and/or parts of the interior surfaces.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

At first, I thought he was a clever troll, but then found out he actually believes the fertilizer he's shoveling. Which makes it even more sad.

Absolutely spot on, Eric. It's also sad how he will go to such ridiculous lengths to attempt to prove a point which isn't there. His latest nonsense about overall cabin temperature rendering vent temperatures unimportant, and his foolish commentary attempting to cast a negative light on the low vent temps I've (and other,s too)achieved ("that's too cold - you must be terribly uncomfortable") really exemplify just how desperate and silly he has become (nothing new, though, been displaying these qualities for quite some time).

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I have given up on him as well. I know my Griffith's system kept my wife and I comfortable in 100+ heat while driving right back into the sun. The steering wheel was HOT on the top and the dash was too hot to hold your hand on. It is illegal to add tinting to the windshield in Oklahoma and I suspect every state.

Yep, and now Griff is an a/c weakling because his business doesn't do window tinting, and cold vent air is meaningless in a 911 due to poor cabin airflow and the effects of the sun through the windows. The a/c world according to wwest - a self professed, human tome of air conditioning knowledge that doesn't actually do a/c work.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

and cold vent air is meaningless in a 911 due to poor cabin airflow and the effects of the sun through the windows.

Wow, seriously? As a diagnostic tool (you know, something like DATA COLLECTION), vent temps are all that matter. They are the final product.

Cabin temps are a result of the vent temps, and without low vent temps, you aren't going to get cabin temps down. I thought everyone understood this. The lack of wwest's comprehension is stunning, even now.

If you have the sun shining on you, directly, then really cool air from the vents is very nice. But wwest thinks mid-70s is "comfortable". ANd thinks everyone else is "comfortable" at that temp too, and cannot grasp that some of us want the cabin to be closer to, ohhh, 68-70 degrees.

To the OP - this isn't about sniping - it's about archived info. Some other poor sap might actually take wwest's suggestions seriously, which is why he so thoroughly screws up every AC thread - so he can peddle his foolish "solution" to 911 AC. Just a casual stroll around his posts will show a pattern of usurping threads to pointedly NOT answer the technical question, but to push his brand of AC "repair". He's done it to you here, as well.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Cabin temps are a result of the vent temps, and without low vent temps, you aren't going to get cabin temps down. I thought everyone understood this. The lack of wwest's comprehension is stunning, even now.

Exactly, and I agree that this concept seems as if it would be obvious to anyone willing to give two seconds of rational thought to the principles of air conditioning.

wwest whole argument against the usefulness of low vent temperatures in a 911 is really puzzling. Along with what you note, the lower the vent temps, the quicker the entire cabin temperature is reduced (not just the air blowing on one's face and chest), and if the environment becomes too cold for comfort, well heeelllooooooo, there is this device on board called an adjustable thermostat. For me, this is not based on reading, but on actually experiencing very cold vent temperatures, on extremely humid, hot and sunny days, in an air cooled 911.

Maybe wwest actually knows better and his latest line of tripe is simply an example of Bob's noted "chain yanking for sport". I struggle with wanting to take the bait, but like you said here and elsewhere, his information is so flawed that it is a disservice to others to let it slide by unchecked.