prirotizing HP gain methods based on cost

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by car-nut

I sincerely thank those who offered constructive remarks and suggestions.

To those who have issues with the attitude. Please read the nonsense that have been thrown in return to my simple question, right from the beginning and see at me, and see why my attitude changed (e.g., go buy a Mada 3, buy a Porsche 944 . . .; good day. door -> a$$.). For sure, I am not going to degrade myself to the level of those who come up with such wasteful nonsense. If you do not extend respect to the poster, respect the others and do not waste time and space by nonsense. I have respected, do respect and will respect many experts and their opinion in this forum, regardless of the nonsense that I have seen on this thread. That said, however, I do not have time to see irrelevant comments. Obviously, some have too much time to waste to right irrelevant nonsense.

Again, many thanks to those who provided constructive suggestions - much appreciated.
. . . to those who WILL come back with further nonsense - Please do not waste other people's time.
Cheers,
The car-nut (with an attitude?!!!)

It's not "nonsense". You want to do something that is going to be really hard to do.

I seriously doubt that even after all the money my brother spent on his engine that he could hang with a Dodge Neon SRT. HP to weight ratio is the killer. If you really want a car that will hang with others that are faster... buy a faster car. There's always going to be something faster. You're driving a 30+ year old classic car that most people driving those mazda3's would love to drive.

Like I wrote earlier, you're trying to do something that this car wasn't really built to do. If you want your car to be faster, you need to improve lower rpm torque. These cars lack power in the lower rpm range. You need a transmission that will let you get into 2nd gear without hesitation. And I'd probably change the gearing to sacrifice top end at the gain of faster 0-60 times.

Just my .02

[ClickClickBoom]

As noted before, lots of faster cars out there. I added a Fabspeed premuff thing, Dansk sport muffler(1 in 1 out), Steve Wong chip, and the German DME shop MAF. Car runs fantastic, is scary fast for the street and corners like a squirrel on crack. The Toyo R1Rs are 140 tread wear and are like Velcro! The above is low hanging fruit, everything else is gonna cost much larger cash.

[car-nut]

Dear JeremyD:
Thank you fro your detailed note. As I mentioned earlier, I though it would be interesting for all to see the so-called "bang-for-the-buck". Obviously, I have been wrong in thinking it!

I am certainly going to take the rout you have suggested; nevertheless, I am still not clear why the supercharging has not been advocated here. Is there anything I am missing with respect to the gain you can (MAY) get for a few thousand dollars? Some of the comments given in regard to this approach is not clear to me. I would appreciate it if you could calrify this issue for me.

Cheers,
The car-nut.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by car-nut

Dear JeremyD:
Thank you fro your detailed note. As I mentioned earlier, I though it would be interesting for all to see the so-called "bang-for-the-buck". Obviously, I have been wrong in thinking it!

I am certainly going to take the rout you have suggested; nevertheless, I am still not clear why the supercharging has not been advocated here. Is there anything I am missing with respect to the gain you can (MAY) get for a few thousand dollars? Some of the comments given in regard to this approach is not clear to me. I would appreciate it if you could calrify this issue for me.

Cheers,
The car-nut.

Zack,
Forced induction is the best way to increase BMEP. The problem lies with the support systems and original design. The support systems include oil pumps, fuel and ignition management systems. Once you start introducing more air into an engine, fuel must be added at the correct ratios, or rapid and expensive things start to happen. Ignition is the other variable right is right, wrong is expensive. The design issues comes from changing the intake pressures and overall engine dynamics, the 3.2 is a robust design, if the 935 can produce close to 1000 hp in Group 5 kit, the original design is sound, but the kit is what changes, TI con rods, increased oil pump flow, inter cooling ect. The costs come from the kit to support the new design intent. Corky Bells books on forced induction are informative and explain all the above. I have done more than a few diesel turbo conversions and it was an education to say the least. Forced induction of a gasoline engine is a whole lot more than diesel due to fuel ratios necessary. There is a reason I haven't turboed my 3.2, cost vs benefit ratio is not on my side for the street.
The street is slippery, the question is, do you really need more power and why?

My favorite vid:
http://youtu.be/wPfK_BispVo

Limber up your checkbook:
http://www.spezialmotorer.com/

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by McLaren-TAG

You talk about wasting people's time?

99.9% of anything Porsche 3.2 has been answered on these pages, should someone take the time and have the patience to look, read and then look and read some more.

.

This. I would venture to say the percentage is 99.99%.

The simple answer Porsche did a VERY good job of extracting the power from the platform. There are no simple cheap gains to be had.

Supercharging is an option. We had a local member that did it. The problem with supercharging is it adds a LOT of heat. More power is more heat to dissipate. The biggest challenge my friend faced was spark knock and a too lean at boost condition. He blew a hole right through a piston. That was not cheap at all.

The 3.2 engine does not have a knock sensor. If you can engineer an effective knock sensor that ignores all the mechanical clatter of a 3.2 engine and just catches the detonation and somehow interfaces with the DME you will have the magic fix.

Look at the price for all new fuel injection systems. Cheap is not a word you will be thinking. Holed pistons are not cheap.

[JohnJL]

Originally Posted by car-nut

Dear JeremyD:
I am still not clear why the supercharging has not been advocated here. Is there anything I am missing with respect to the gain you can (MAY) get for a few thousand dollars? Some of the comments given in regard to this approach is not clear to me. I would appreciate it if you could calrify this issue for me.

Cheers,
The car-nut.

Supercharging has been advocated and documented quite extensively on this site. I see the Search button has already been pointed out for you. What you want to do is type words like "supercharging" into that box near the search button and read the resulting threads. Once you have I would be happy to answer questions that I and others provided in those threads.

[car-nut]

I appreciate the feedback!
I do agree that we are driving classic cars; but, don't you agree with me that this car should be able to act close to her Turbo Brother?! (please don't say I should have bought the real turbo; because I wish I could have!)


As for the heat issue Glen; can one not alleviate the heat issue by putting additional electrically operated fan below the grille (on the back-lid?

Cheers
The car-nut

[Josh D]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. It's been a proven formula for many.

Modest HP gains within the confines of the 3.2 engine (30-40 HP) + modest reduction in weight (200-300 lbs) = a significant increase in performance!

If you can get your 3.2 to about 250 hp (flywheel), and your car weight to about 2600 lbs., that puts your power to weight ratio at 10.4 lbs per horsepower! Thats '73 2.7 Carrera RS territory right there. And nobody accused that car of being slow. Add a lower gearset to the mix and you are at least in the low 5 seconds to 60. That's a fun to drive car!

With the know how and ability to do the work yourself, I'd say this all can be achieved for <$15k. And it doesn't have to be done all at once.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by car-nut

As for the heat issue Glen; can one not alleviate the heat issue by putting additional electrically operated fan below the grille (on the back-lid?

Cheers
The car-nut

Understanding is key, this statement shows a basic lack of understanding on the subject. Start with Corky Bell and work forward from there.

[Josh D]

That's a great looking car Zack!

But reality is that an all steel widebody cab is a heavy car. It's really a lot of work for that little 3.2. Putting it on a diet will drastically change it's looks from original (FG IROC bumpers & DT decklid for instance) as well as ditching things like the heavy factory seats, spare tire/tools, etc. taking it further away from stock original. Or just swap in a bigger 964 3.6 motor that has the torque to push around that weight with more authority.

[Damon in STL]

My path....

Megasquirt II/Bitz Kit for fuel and timing.....then this.



It should be fairly easy and cheap....as I already have the turbo.

The only hard part for you will be developing the knowledge I have now gained over the last 10 years of researching and the fabrication skills I've learned from doing such a project on my BMW (see link below). Or, just add $5k for parts and another $5k installation costs for someone else to do it.

The big question is how to provide the water cooling to the center section!!!!

Damon in STL

[car-nut]

Great suggestions and clarifications - this is what I was expecting,a dn am now very excited to learn these info; many thanks.

I am almost approaching to a decision. Josh D suggested sinking in a 3.6. That is actually not a very expensive idea, provided I could get a decent price for my engine, that has had only 40k miles since its complete overhaul. I suppose, that would also be reasonably easy for a DIYer.

Josh D's other suggestion of 30-40 hp gain is also nice, but I really do not want to change to authentic classic look of the car, and sacrifice the outstanding comfortably seats that this car has (I am certain that my wife would not endorse that idea either - she is putting up with my crazy driving habits - so that is enough; I cannot subject her to more discomfort -LOL!)

The other good suggestion I am contemplating is that given by many on this thread, which is:
"I added a Fabspeed premuff thing, Dansk sport muffler(1 in 1 out), Steve Wong chip, and the German DME shop MAF. Car runs fantastic, is scary fast for the street and corners like a squirrel on crack."

Perhaps my last question for the experts, and I promise, I would not push this topic any further.

What is the approximate cost of the above modification (i.e., Fabspeed . . . ) and the associated HP gain.

I am assuming that the change to 3.6 would gain me another 50-60 hp?!

Thanks again.

The car-nut

[Tippy]

I think I'm at nearing 600hp with 20PSI of boost on my 3.2.

All stock motor (except 7.5:1CR pistons) with a Borg-Warner S366 turbo right out of box.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by car-nut

As for the heat issue Glen; can one not alleviate the heat issue by putting additional electrically operated fan below the grille (on the back-lid?

Cheers
The car-nut

The short answer is NO.

No electric fan you can put back there will come even close to adding a significant amount of air flow over the stock mechanical fan on the engine. You will have to add oil cooling to the car. That is usually a matching cooler and lines in the front left fender or a new front valence and a cooler up in the front valence.

All of that is do-able but not cheap or quick or easy.

As others have suggested explore that search feature. You will find endless pages of HP modifications and problems created and solved.

In the end it comes down to your budget. Any modifications to get more than 25 to 35 HP will be expensive.

Good luck in your quest for more power.

[Bergo]

I'm on the same path as you, have a '74, currently a 2.2L, and shopping for a 3.2. Have a turbo and intake. Would like to shoot for ~300HP, I know it'll cost me about $10k.

[Bleedsblue]

Oh, man. Would read again.

[bemmett]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

As noted before, lots of faster cars out there. I added a Fabspeed premuff thing, Dansk sport muffler(1 in 1 out), Steve Wong chip, and the German DME shop MAF. Car runs fantastic, is scary fast for the street and corners like a squirrel on crack. The Toyo R1Rs are 140 tread wear and are like Velcro! The above is low hanging fruit, everything else is gonna cost much larger cash.

I see you're just over the hill from me in Boulder Creek. I like the sound of your setup (I just got an '87 12 days ago, and currently planning light, reversible mods). I presume you are swapping the Fabspeed out when you need to get the car smogged?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by car-nut

I do agree that we are driving classic cars; but, don't you agree with me that this car should be able to act close to her Turbo Brother?

Not in the least. Not even if I think the issue to a fare-thee-well.

I have been Porsche 911 "fixated" since 1969 and a 911 owner for the last 17 years.

These other guys are too kind. You ain't the sharpest tool in the shed having intentions of raping an M491.

Stick with the 30 hp gain for circa $2k and pull your head out of your butt.

[car-nut]

yet another friend with expertise in use of words (``pull your head out of your butt`). Sometimes I feel I am on a muscle car forum!

[Trackrash]

Actually, I was a little surprised that we didn't have people posting "I spent X$ to do...".

Then the reality hit me. You will not usually hear cost and Porsche in the same sentence. I think the saying goes "if you have to ask...".

That said, I have been asking the question of how much power can I get for X$, for years, as I contemplate my cars eventual power upgrade.

I looked at all my possible choices (See Wayne's book) and calculated the costs. There are no simple or cheap answers. There are a number of things to consider in addition to cost. Many of those factors have been mentioned already.

A real good friend had a Viper. My car dynos at ~200Hp and weighs 2100. I find my car much more fun to drive, it's more responsive, and has much better throttle response. Now above 100 mph the Viper is unreal, but when are you ever going to do that?

My advice is to do your homework. How much power do you really want? Or need? 240 Hp in a light weight car will scare most people. 300 will take your breath away.

Join PCA, take a performance driving class, attend some autocrosses or DEs, and find out what you really need.