Pelican Parts Forums - A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's

Pelican Parts Forums (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/)

- Porsche 911 Technical Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/)

- - A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/858116-c-reverse-gases-early-model-911s.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_cooper (Post 8568276)

At 2000 rpm your pulling a vacuum! on the low side and 126 on the high side?

I would normally say the expansion valve is defective (almost closed) it is not passing refrigerant effectively and not enough refrigerant remaining on the high side for the compressor to pump up normally. You may get some uber cold vent temps with HC12a with those pressure readings. HC12a gets very cold when undercharged..which is what the pressures act like too.

A/C compressor won't last long though pulling a vacuum on the low side all the time. No oil flowing in the refrigerant and hard work on the compressor internals.

Howdy DB

FYI, I hold a valid US Government EPA Federal "UNIVERSAL LICENSE", for ANY refrigerant or type of system Certification THAT encompass everything and is also recognized worldwide by all United Nations Signatories; NOT a lowly limited State technicians License

The compressor used in THE BLACK SWAN is working absolutely perfectly as intended for optimal a/c cooling with the least amount of refrigerant with these pressures I posted using R134A as well as all of the components in the system! The evaporator is not freezing as well as the evap blower set on low speed and putting out vent temps in the mid-30s F, the PFC’s heat exchange for both is perfect, The thermal expansion valve has been modified and the superheat has been set perfectly. The system is working optimally for peak efficacy in perfect balance @ these pressures

• What are HC-12a® and OZ-12®?
HC-12a® and OZ-12® brand hydrocarbon refrigerant blends are flammable refrigerants. Their primary components are hydrocarbons, which are flammable substances such as propane and butane. HC-12a® and OZ-12® are registered trademarks of OZ Technology, Inc. HC-12a® has been marketed since 1994. OZ-12® was a similar blend marketed until the introduction of HC-12a® . Both products have been reviewed by EPA under the Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) program. More information about the SNAP program is available from the hotline listed at the top of this page.
Note that EPA refers to the chemical composition of HC-12a® as Hydrocarbon Blend B. EPA considers any substance with that chemical composition, no matter what its trade name is, to be Hydrocarbon Blend B and to have the same legal status that HC-12a® has.
In order to meet Department of Transportation requirements for shipping HC-12a® in six-ounce cans (DOT refers to these cans as DOT 2Q containers), OZ Technology reduced the vapor pressure of HC-12a® in June, 1998 by changing the composition. EPA does not consider this reformulated HC-12a® to be the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B. The reformulated HC-12a® has not been submitted for SNAP review, and thus cannot be marketed or used as a substitute for ozone-depleting substances.
• What is DURACOOL 12a®? Is there a difference between HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a®?
DURACOOL 12a® has the same chemical composition as the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review and was called Hydrocarbon Blend B. Both HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® are different than the new formulation of HC-12a® in six-ounce cans. DURACOOL 12a® is the registered trademark of Duracool Limited, the Canadian company that has manufactured DURACOOL 12a® since 1997. Duracool Limited and OZ Technology, the manufacturer of HC-12a®, are separate, unrelated companies with their own manufacturing facilities and distribution mechanisms.
• What is the legal status of hydrocarbon refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL®?
It has been illegal since July 13, 1995 to replace CFC-12 with the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review in any refrigeration or A/C application other than industrial process refrigeration. The same prohibition for OZ-12® took effect on April 18, 1994. Because DURACOOL 12a® has the same chemical composition as the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review (i.e., Hydrocarbon Blend B), DURACOOL 12a® is also subject to the same restrictions.
HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, is not the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B and has not been submitted for SNAP review. OZ Technology is therefore prohibited from marketing this blend as a substitute for any ozone-depleting substance. In addition, any use of this blend as a substitute for CFC-12 or any other ozone-depleting chemical, in industrial process refrigeration or any other refrigeration or A/C end use, is prohibited under the Clean Air Act.
Since HC-12a®, as submitted for SNAP review, is chemically different from HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, and since it has a different legal status under the Clean Air Act, users of any substance marketed as HC-12a® should be aware of which HC-12a® they have purchased.
Note: Many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
• May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "Freon® ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.

Not a good IDEA, this refrigerant is flammable and can explode causing great injury or all kinds of damage, and why it is illegal to use in an automobile or truck

Your thinking "A/C compressor won't last long though pulling a vacuum on the low side all the time. No oil flowing in the refrigerant and hard work on the compressor internals." IS SIMPLY WRONG! There will be no damage to the compressor as long as it has the right amount OIL in it and correct for the gas used,

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8568514)

Tippy your making it too easy for them

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat2.gif http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat2.gif

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8568138)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428539180.jpg

This is the underside of THE TAN SWAN which also has this invention

Do you always lift the car in such a way as to pinch closed the A/C lines that you just installed?

No wonder he's only using .95 pounds, 3/4 of the system is sealed off with that lifting arm!

I'm still trying to figure out how you "invented" the reversed gas flow 2 years ago, yet my car and every car with the underbelly condenser has the reversed gas flow already, dating back 10 years or more.

This is a serious 911 thread!!!

This is a serious thread

If you can't act like an adult Leave!!!

look closer the hoses are not crushed

You don't quite get it.

You are the a-hole here, Slick.

Please close this thread.

Somebody?

belly-pan condenses have an extremely poor heat exchange for several reasons this is why they are no longer produced

They have nothing to do with this tread

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8568532)

Not a good IDEA, this refrigerant is flammable and can explode causing great injury or all kinds of damage

But never both.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha

It's funny, the more boisterous the enema bag (that's you, KelogGES) the more they are unable to communicate using the standard format and rules English speaking people have adopted.

Faux intellectualism. Gotta love it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8568925)

look closer the hoses are not crushed

So you're lifting the car via the sway bar? Even better!

It doesn't matter whether underbelly condensers work well or not (they do), it matters that you claim to have invented a new way to flow the gas in a Porsche A/C system, when facts show that you did NOT invent it.

That's all, nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 8568962)

I assume that he removes all of the gasoline from his cars before driving as well, since it's flammable and can explode causing great injury

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu (Post 8569009)

I assume that he removes all of the gasoline from his cars before driving as well, since it's flammable and can explode causing great injury

R-134 is flammable. More so than R-12 (from a google search). Over 1,000 degrees F but still not to be played with.

Joke was that you are either injured OR property damage occurs - but not both injury and damage.

I have to articulate that or I will be blamed as a fire starter first and then KG will "ig" me even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 8568469)

You talk about reverse the gases but you have yet to explain just how it's done. Now I am not a rocket scientist but I do know a little bit about A/C and how it works regardless of it being in a car or in a house.

So I have to ask - just where are you reversing the gasses - or is that a trick question but instead should be "where are you reversing the flow of the gases".

He means reversing the order of the flow through the 2 condensers. Factory
has the rear lid condenser first in the flow, KeloGes has the front lip condenser first. Same amount of condensing effectiveness either way, just now less work being done by the rear lid condenser, cooler running engine.

Much like reversing the order of flow with the 2 condensers in my frost-free frig, the drip pan water would accumulate , not evaporate away as readily as otherwise.

The only time I have ever experienced "reverse flow gases" is on a heat pump and none of the cars that I am aware of have a heat pump design.

Secondly you show a picture of the high and low pressure side of the refrigerant lines. Well I have to ask - you comment that the low pressure is around 3 or 4 psi yet the temperature of the air flow is around 35 - 37 average temp.

Even worse, that's MINUS 3-4 PSI...!!

If you are using 134-A refrigerant the temperature at 3 - 4 pis would be around -5 to -8 degrees F.
In addition to that you also include in your comments that you only use around .95 lbs of refrigerant.

KeloGes subscribes, apparently, to the Griffiths school of thought regarding the (CCOT) method of charging our TXV systems. Charging just to the point of minimum vent temperature. TXV out of flow modulation range, evaporator freeze up unless the thermostatic switch is properly "calibrated".

Even so, 0.95 seems low.

I have to say you surely have me baffeled because if you measure the diameter and length of the lines to get the correct volume, and calculate the volume of using two condensing units there is no way you are only using .95 lbs of refrigerant.

If what you say is true about the amount of refrigerant, then the lines would have to be around 1/8" diameter along with the condensing units.

I think you want everyone to believe that you have this great invention that you won't tell anyone about and want us to believe you know what you are talking about -

But I really don't want to say it I don't think you know what you are talking about. For if you did you would have explained it already.

And as far as your concern for others taking away your secrets, I don't think you have any to be taken away.

I have been working in the HVAC industry since 1965 working on chillers air handling units, ammonia systems and anything else related to the HVAC industry.

I know you can make water boil at 33F under the right circumstances but when it comes to claiming that you can keep an evaporator coil from freezing based on your pressures of 3 or 4 PSI that reaks of not knowing what you are talking about.

Hmmm... Maybe his PFC "invention" has that much restriction to flow..?

You can claim to get the condensing coil temperatures down with your PFC but that's about as far as you can go with your claim.

Unless you can provide a descriptive flow chart showing just what you are talking about when you speak of reverse gas flow - you will continually be discredited because no one believes you know what you are talking about.

Now don't take this as a criticism but take it as a response from all your posts from someone who has been working in the HVAC industry for quite some time.

And should you do want to discredit me by saying I do not know what I am talking about, you are going to have to prove me wrong by you coming clean with proof - not just by saying I put it out there you figure it out. Any dummy can do that.

KeloGes isn't just any dummy, he tops the list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8569052)

KeloGes isn't just any dummy, he tops the list.

BAM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428595957.jpg

I AM NO FOOL!!!

its going to be fun proving ALL the NA Sayers wrong shortly that have dogged me for over 4 years

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8569066)

I AM NO FOOL!!!

You are far more a fool than a dummy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu (Post 8569004)

Actually, KeloGes did "invent" it. No one, otherwise, would think up such an idiotic
arrangement and then insist that's it's actually an improvement over the factory system.

The true test of an A/C system is how fast it can bring down an overheated cabin atmosphere to a sensible human comfort level, not how cold the outflow might be with minimum airflow once the cabin is comfortable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8569086)

The true test of an A/C system is how fast it can bring down an overheated cabin atmosphere to a sensible human comfort level

You are talking the widely accepted Ronnie comfort plus 22F rule, correct?

(Or was that plus 40F?)

^^^^

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt! My a/c comfort zone would have Will reaching for the nearest space blanket (like Saul's brother in "Better Call Saul" - though he isn't doing it for warmth).

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8569066)

I AM NO FOOL!!!

its going to be fun proving ALL the NA Sayers wrong shortly that have dogged me for over 4 years

So when are you going to show all of us naysayers that your set-up performs at least as good as the obsolete options? From what you've shown so far, you're not even close . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8569086)

actually, keloges did "invent" it. No one, otherwise, would think up such an idiotic
arrangement and then insist that's it's actually an improvement over the factory system.

The true test of an a/c system is how fast it can bring down an overheated cabin atmosphere to a sensible human comfort level, not how cold the outflow might be with minimum airflow once the cabin is comfortable.

bingo

try it and test it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 8569103)

You are talking the widely accepted Ronnie comfort plus 22F rule, correct?

(Or was that plus 40F?)

Bob, what's hilarious about this is how close you are with those numbers - I sheet you not.

For example, I keep my personal space(s) at home very cold and do so like so:

1) in my bedroom = an 8000 btu window unit which I temperature control with a refrigeration gadget (an electronic controller that overrides the digital thermostat by way of a temp probe heater and prevents evaporator freeze-up by utilizing a frost sensor) - the low last night was in the mid-upper 60s with ungodly humidity, and my room temperature was a most excellent 52 = Heaven!

2) my small, computer room/office/study (aka: interior man cave) = 5ooo btu window unit which I temp control by way of a toggle switch installed in place of the thermostat. The toggle switch is mounted on the end of 10 foot extension cord, so I don't even have to get out of my desk chair to toggle it off when I notice the evaporator freezing.

The above is in addition to the home's central a/c.

Getcha suuuummmmm!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 (Post 8569187)

Getcha suuuummmmm!

Will do. Always have been a fan of pneumonia.

Ever try just kicking a leg out from under the covers?:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 8569205)

Ever try just kicking a leg out from under the covers?:rolleyes:

Which of the three!?!?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 (Post 8569187)

You are not really unique...

When I go home to HOT/Humid Memphis or NE Arkansas (Tyronza) I am always struck by how COLD my relatives keep their homes. Step outside and rush to get in the car and FREEZE even more, COLD airflow directly to the face and upper body.

In contrast to the mid-fifties using window fans....

Or those hand held manually operated fans in Sunday church.

What I see is that Ronnie's vent temp was shown to be below freezing(29degrees) whilst the OP has shown temps not that low.

I'm not an a/c guy but that is an easy way to see why some question the "new" way.

^^^

Reid, rather than waste your precious energies on attempting to construct silly excuses for why I am able to demonstrate superior a/c performance with obsolete, garbage technology, perhaps you should concentrate on building a cutting edge system that actually outperforms, or even equals, the old-school components and design? Maybe with enough effort on your part, you will one day be successful at doing so?

Another thing that's funny about Reid's "sore loser", crybaby commentary above is that I am definitely not the only person here to achieve this type of performance; Griff has demonstrated it on MANY occasions, people that have installed Griff's components (like Glen/GH85Carrera, Karl, Eric/silber, and many, many others), JFairman in his Turbo (a setup almost identical to mine), ect.

* The "^^^" above was pointing at a post that KelogGes deleted after I wrote this response - not in response to Wayne's post (pretty obvious, I suppose, but wanted to note that).

deleted
Ronnies A/C test Post is BS for a lot of reasons

not wasting my time with this

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8569558)

Ronnies A/C test Post is BS for a lot of reasons

Ask any A/C expert,
NO Automotive A/C can run this cold on planet Earth for any length of time; it is thermodynamical impossible

You missed my earlier post on the issue. At any given instant the vent temperatures might be sub-freezing and yet not, on the average, be cold enough to freeze the condensate. The thermostatic switch itself has a fairly long time constant due to the hysteresis span, temperature at which it closes (above freezing, ~35dF?) vs temperature at which it opens(below freezing, ~32dF?). Additionally the process itself is a slow one, long time constant.

Also the infrared gun he uses; it is impossible to sense / measure air temperature
also you can adjust these to show any number you want with the adjustment

But measuring the temperature of duct walls or/and the louvers is perfectly valid, possibly even moreso than air temperature since cold soaking the duct walls would be long term constant, more of an average.

there is a lot of other things also bad about his post

calmed temperatures only on a hand gauge showing nothing else tell you nothing

My post is a real driving test; including pictures of the car driving, instruments driving, see the foot of the driver, RPM, MPH, Oil Temp, accurate digital Thermometer, Actual high and low side Gas Pressures for 0.95 lbs R134A refrigerant

regardless

this tread is about reversing the gases

You just don't get, do you.

The factory system is perfectly adequate when "underway", engine RPM consistently elevated. It's when the engine fan and the front blower provide insufficient cooling for the A/C demand requirement.

Bold type by WWEST

Again, "reversing the gases" is totally inappropriate and misleading.

(Oh, by chance are you hooking up the front condenser backwards?)

Changing the serial order of the flow through the 2 condensers is what you are proposing.

Which, by the way, doesn't increase the condensing capability even one IOTA.

Unless that extra 40 feet of hose is acting as an aid to condensing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8569611)

But measuring the temperature of duct walls or/and the louvers is perfectly valid, possibly even moreso than air temperature since cold soaking the duct walls would be long term constant, more of an average.

This was pretty much my thinking, too.

I know there are more accurate ways to measure actual air temperature (like that nifty thermometer that Griff has shown), but for my purposes of charging/tuning a/c systems, and for my own general curiosity, the IR gun is fine; after all, the true measure of performance for me is that the system can freeze me out even in sunny, upper 90s, high humidity, stop-&-go and highway driving, and quick cool down after extended vehicle heat soak.

A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's W O R K S !

A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's W O R K S VERY WELL!

Figure out how to do it from the hints and pictures I have posted here

Don't expect 30 degree vent temps like I get using this method @92-95 Ambient
You do not have my PFC's!!!

test it

you should get much lower a/c temperatures than you get now regardless of your condensers technology, and its well worth the effort

I am sorry but I have never tested this invention on OEM tube and fin i.e. Behr or other stock condensers technology most of you probably have; so I have no idea exactly what temps you will get?

But I do know for sure you will get lower a/c temps by simply reversing the gases and your oil temp will also be far lower in the summer or when ambient IS HOT and your using your A/C!!!-(For this reason alone you will want to do/try/test this)

This Truly Works!!! This IS NOT BS!

I am trying to give you something FREE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 8566827)

My dog when I mention KelogGes:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428462545.jpg

would pet

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8569607)

deleted
Ronnies A/C test Post is BS for a lot of reasons

not wasting my time with this

And yet you cannot articulate even one. In a TECH forum, you actually have to be TECHNICAL.

And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelogGes (Post 8569711)

I wonder.... Did you FOOL yourself?

Did you first test the black swan in OEM configuration for a control reference?

Then tested again with your PFC condenser and the front condenser first in the flow?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6 (Post 8569776)

would pet

Love it.

Hey, Eric.

In Ohio, to make time with a babe, slam dunk, just say something nice about her tooth.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428632473.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8569928)

you have dogged me for 4 years are you really this stupid or senile?

I have always been into engineering ONLY new technology PFC's for early model 911s

Why would I bother with old a/c technology OEM condensers to do testing?

Bob, did you get Eric's permission to post that picture of his solo-toofed wife? If not, that's mighty uncool, bro!!!